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  #51  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:35 PM
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About 8 or 9 years ago my nephew had a ND with 9mm ball at his home. He called me shaken and I went over there to check it out. I took the pics.

Entry into the living room wall:



The garage wall:



Into one side of a ladder:



Out the other side:



I dug this out of an exit door:




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  #52  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RCL-09 View Post
One concern, among many, relating to this incident is how it might affect the issuance and use of patrol rifles by LEOs. I can see the fact that it was an "assault rifle" frightening and upsetting some.
Frankly, my concern would be why when of 4 or 5 officers together responding that knew the suspect was, " ....hitting her on the side of the head..." from dispatch, one or two immediately fired on the suspect who was several feet away from the victim, not attacking her, trying to leave (meaning escape), and who did not have a firearm or knife in his hand, but a chain and lock.

Listen to dispatch; watch what happened. Not good for risk management.

Last edited by biku324; 12-28-2021 at 12:54 AM.
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  #53  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by minconrevo View Post
The Glaser was intended to break up on hard surfaces, like marble walls in court houses or a little less. Individuals shot with a Glaser were a tough repair job for a skilled surgeon, if they could be fixed.

The occasional snake I've needed to shoot with a plastic .38 shot capsule usually died of the plastic hit to the head, more than the #12 shot. That plastic killed 'em dead right then.

Maybe one of those plastic snake capsules would not penetrate more than 1-2 standard sheets of drywall but haven't tested. The stopping power of one of those snake capsules on a two legged "snake" would be likely near non-existant.
Glaser Safety slugs suck and a self-defense load.

Also, drywall doesn't stop 'em.





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Old 12-27-2021, 11:57 PM
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I'm not aware of much 5.56 ammo that does not completely penetrate human beings, particularly when fired from within a few yards.

Remember the reliability problem for the rifle as well. When the NMSP first issued us patrol rifles, Colt HBARs, in the early '90s, the dimwit sycophant who had the Chief's ear convinced him to get Federal 68 grain match hollowpoint. Stupid, stupid, stupid - that ammo was not crimped, and the hollowpoint would very often catch on the sharp locking lug recess points and get shoved back deeply into the case. That caused 1) a malfunction, or 2) a round that continued into the chamber and fired at MUCH higher pressure. We occasionally found ruptured cases on the range at qualification. It was so bad the Chief finally allowed the one-third of us or so whose weapons wouldn't fire that ammo reliably to use the training ammo, M193 ball - we had to write a letter endorsed by the rangemaster to get permission to use ball on duty.

We tried 40 grain SP in the late 90s/early 2000s for SRT use in another agency, but the one shooting I saw with that ammo was also a passthrough.
Way back in the day when I was issued an M16 we were all told that the 5.56x45 M193 ball round had more wounding potential than the 7.62x51 M80 ball round because it tumbled and fragmented.

The truth is a little bit more complicated.

If you go back far enough in ordinance history, you’ll find that same “the new bullet is more lethal because it tumbles” argument going all the way back to the “smaller” .45-700-500 and .45-70-405 gr bullets. Then you see it repeated with the .30-40 Krag and the .30-06.

The British invested a lot of effort in determining the optimum diameter in their pre-WWI effort to replace the .303 British. The ultimate outcome of those studies was an intention in 1912 to adopt the .276 Enfield, which used a 165 gr .282” diameter bullet at 2,785 fps.

However with the onset of WWI the .276 Enfield and the Pattern 13 Enfield developed to use it were cancelled as they had no desire to add a second cartridge to the logistics problem. They did however modify the Pattern 13 to fire the .303 Brit round and fielded it as the Pattern 14. Post WWI, they had hundreds of millions of rounds of .303 Brit ammo and hundreds of thousands of rifles chambered for it so any thought of swapping service rifles and cartridges was dropped.

Fast forward to post WWII, they were again looking to rep place the . 303 Brit and SMLE and developed the .280 British round, using a 140 gr .284” bullet this time in an intermediate sized cartridge at 2500 fps. I’m not sure it would have still tumbled and fragmented at that velocity, but by now the goal was a round with less recoil and better controllability in a select fire rifle.

The powers that be in the US Army rejected the idea and instead pushed for the 7.62x51, giving .30-06 ballistics in a 1/2” shorter cartridge that was better suited to select fire weapons.

And of course within a decade of adoption the US abandoned it for the intermediate 5.56x45 round with a 55 gr FMJ round at about 3250 fps that happened to tumble and fragment at velocities above about 2700 fps and still tumbled above 2600 fps.

Ballistic gel testing with M193 out of a 20” barrel is always interesting. You get a .224” hole for about the first 4 inches before the bullet yaws and tumbles and at short range usually fragments. It leaves a permanent cavity about 3” in diameter and about 5” long with about 12” of total penetration, and quite often than not the largest remaining fragment of the will leave through the sides of a 6”x6”x16” gel block.

However velocity is critical. In the M16A1s 20” barrel and 3250 fps muzzle velocity you’d stay above 2600 fps out to about 175 yards. At the other extreme in an 11.5” XM177E2 the muzzle velocity of M193 is down around 2800 fps, so the range at which you can expect the bullet to tumble is only about 50 yards.

In a 16” carbine the muzzle velocity will be around 3000 fps and the tumbling effect can be expected out to about 100 yards.

All three however are plenty adequate for self defense purposes.

M855 is less impressive. The military seems to have forgotten what made the concept work when they went with the 62 gr SS109 round designed to penetrate a steel pot at 800 yards. But that heavier weight means less velocity, about 150 fps less in a 20” barrel. That’s still enough to get the same tumbling effect to about 150 yards in the 20” M16A2, but in the 14.7” M4 that range decreases to about 60 yards.

But again, both are still adequate for personnel defense purposes.

—-

In any case, if you actually hit an assailant with either the M193 or M855 rounds at legitimate self defense ranges it probably isn’t going to over penetrate.

If you miss however, both rounds will almost certainly penetrate at least one interior wall.

Soft points are a different story. Even in the .223 Rem most are intended to provide better penetration in game animals, so they are more likely to demonstrate controlled expansion and are less likely to fragment.
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  #55  
Old 12-28-2021, 12:08 AM
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No.

I've been to 4 shootings with M193 ball. One round penetrated the suspect's head (at 50 feet), passed through a back trailer wall, then into the roof of the next trailer, stopping mostly intact (3 grains of jacket remained in the suspect's head) in the composite on the roof. The next penetrated thin sheet metal of a commercial tractor, blew the right kneecap off a suspect, passed through his heart, then passed through the seat, the sleeper wall, and stopped intact in a sleeper mattress from 9 feet off the muzzle.

No need to go on. No one can accurately predict what specific bullets will do in individual circumstances.

Last edited by biku324; 12-28-2021 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 12-28-2021, 12:27 AM
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I'll be praying for the family of the child. I'll also be praying for the officers involved.
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  #57  
Old 12-28-2021, 12:36 AM
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That is the best we can do.
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Old 12-28-2021, 02:07 AM
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The Glaser-type round strong suit is that it's likely to break up on harder surfaces, like marble office walls. Obviously it's of limited use. IMO an individual carrying or the agency issuing ammo needs to carefully research what ammo is best at the time ammo for use is purchased. The specific gun(s) it will be used in needs consideration. For many the best ammo that consistently meets the FBI 12" protocol gets the nod. The best may change from year to year.

The other issue is training stress on being aware of a target's background and where a fired projectile will stop. For a home owner, it's possible to develop a fire plan for their home from likely points of engagement. It will become apparent that some points offer limited or nil opportunities for engagement. For LE training or self defense away from known territory it's a much thornier boggle.
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Old 12-28-2021, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamloops67 View Post
I don’t think you get to say, “ you weren’t there, so you can’t judge “when there is a dead inoccent child on the scene
Obviously , someone screwed up big time !
Yes, it is a tragedy when an innocent is killed, particularly when young.

However, since neither of us were present at the time and place, at the time I commented, information was, and to a degree still is, both fragmented and incomplete. I reserve judgement until all facts are in. It's premature to state your conclusion until all information is available.

There's been a lot of electrons dispersed here on what bullets do vis a vis drywall. I'd suggest that, range rules permitting, some of you pick up some 2' x2' drywall repair squares, drywall screws and a 2x4 from your local building supply and do your own experimentation. Several targets lined up behind the "wall" will let you know if the bullet comes through intact, tumbling, fragmenting or whatever. I found it educational. Some water filled milk jugs can give you an idea of energy levels. The gypsum in the drywall is good for the grass.
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Old 12-28-2021, 12:30 PM
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Any round that is used as a defensive/offensive load will prentrate more things than you realize. Be sure of your target and try like heck not to miss!
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Old 12-28-2021, 01:10 PM
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Videos are out. The officer in the video shooting was using an M16A1, though another could have gotten in on it too. One of the vids has discussions of some of the officers going up with less lethal first, rifle guy gets up past all the other cops saying he should be on point since he had the rifle. Suspect is scurrying away trying to get around an aisle divider when the officer starts shooting.

Absolutely tragic, it's not pleasant to watch and I hope the 14 year olds family can eventually get some peace.

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Old 12-28-2021, 01:46 PM
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And the right discussion (less-lethal) was had, but apparently not followed through.
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Old 12-28-2021, 01:53 PM
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And the right discussion (less-lethal) was had, but apparently not followed through.
Yep. Suspect apparently was beating people with a bike lock. I recognize it's all Monday morning quarterbacking now but concerns about overpenetration of a given caliber are pretty far down on how this situation could have gone differently.
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Old 12-28-2021, 07:08 PM
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I don't know what information was dispatched to the primary officer(s) involved. However it may be that he was relayed the information (apparently incorrect) from the caller that said shots had been fired. I suspect that that mis-information resulted from the suspect slamming the cable lock into something causing the loud sharp bang heard in the recording.

So, the officers were, to their knowledge, responding to an active shooter situation. My active shooter training (as a result of Columbine) was to respond with speed at the expense of risk to myself or other officers and without waiting for full support or backup to rapidly terminate the threat before (more) lives are lost. I assume they had similar and probably better training. (I don't think I phrased that well but hopefully you get the idea.)

They arrive and find blood on the floor and an injured citizen and see a suspect presumably armed with a firearm (based on the report) about to flee from immediate sight. Take him out now!

The death of the child is a horrendous outcome, obviously. I don't even have words for that...

As for the suspect, well tough. His death was a result of his own stupid or deranged actions and just bad luck due to the way the call came in. The responding officers are going to error on the side of, well error in an effort to stop what was a perceived mass shooting.

I really can't adequately express my feelings on the situation without getting censored.

A bad situation with a very bad outcome.
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Old 12-28-2021, 07:41 PM
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oink, thank you for your reply.

I have friends and family in law enforcement and can't be more supportive and respectful of this difficult profession.

Watching the MSN video link provided earlier in this thread and this one,

MSN

the badge cam of the cop with the AR15 clearly showed the suspect with a cable chain lock in his right hand facing the ground, no gun in his possession, not charging or threatening anyone, the nearest victim about 10 feet away from him and next to the cop with the badge cam and the AR15. His partner said, "slow down, slow down." The cop with the AR15 then shot the suspect.

Note that there's a large scope on the AR15 and if you look carefully, you can see a bullet hole in the wall behind the suspect.

Regardless of whether a caller reports to 911 that there's a gunman, the cops need to look at the situation on the ground and not rely solely on a caller.

Apparently, that cop with the AR15 ignored other cops who had tasers and suggested using tasers. I did not hear that part of the discussion.

My sig other said that in the Spanish news, the victim's mother heard a commotion, so she and the daughter crouched down in the dressing room and prayed. The bullet struck the teen in the chest. If true, the cop grossly missed the suspect's center of mass.

While we don't know all of the circumstances, especially other badge cam and surveillance videos, based upon that video, the suspect was not an imminent threat to anyone to justify immediately shooting him and less lethal interventions should have been done or the cop at the very least will need to articulate very well why he didn't consider less lethal measures and, if he didn't use the rifle scope, why not.

I presume that his AR-15s was set to select fire/burst mode, which would explain why he shot three cartridges.

Last edited by giants1; 12-28-2021 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 12-28-2021, 07:58 PM
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Crybabies gonna crybaby. Mixing the tragedy of what might well be poor marksmanship (and an AR is a lot easier to shoot well under pressure than a handgun for us mere mortals) with the appearance of the platform is to expected. Giving into it is cowardly and unethical.
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Old 12-28-2021, 08:30 PM
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The LAPD video release is 35 minutes - if you watch the actual bodycam and store surveillance video and listen to the conversation, the officer only discussed the decedent "...hitting..on the right side" of the woman left bleeding on the floor. No one said anything about a gun from the time they geared up to the end of the video although one initial dispatch call said it was a shooting. We don't see mobile data terminal traffic. The most relevant part is from 27:00 to the end.

The shooting of a whacko armed with a bike chain and lock who is several feet from (and no further threat to) the victim, who has broken off his attack, and who is trying to run away in a store where you have several police officers on the same floor within a few feet, is outside of any recent use of force policy of which I'm aware, and probably violates Garner as well. No commands, no use of the less-lethal weaponry on the several officers immediately at arrest site - this one will be expensive.

The decedent won't be missed by me, so I'll likely not make his celebration of life.

I can't even imagine how awful the officer who fired feels.

Last edited by biku324; 12-28-2021 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 12-28-2021, 08:41 PM
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Crybabies gonna crybaby. Mixing the tragedy of what might well be poor marksmanship (and an AR is a lot easier to shoot well under pressure than a handgun for us mere mortals) with the appearance of the platform is to expected. Giving into it is cowardly and unethical.
An innocent 14 year old girl is dead from a botched police response. I'm glad we've got "crybabies" who aren't cool with that.

Also, it looks like the decision to shoot was a bad one. I don't particularly care that it was with his AR, though that is relevant as the original post thought it was a 9mm used. I don't think we'd have seen a better outcome had the officer been using his handgun instead.
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Old 12-28-2021, 08:46 PM
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Would Federal FlyteControl #00 Buckshot likely have over-penetrated into the dressing room?
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Old 12-28-2021, 08:50 PM
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Would Federal FlyteControl #00 Buckshot likely have over-penetrated into the dressing room?
Yes. There's really not a good way around the basic truth that ammo we deem acceptable for taking down people or people sized (or larger) animals will also go through light doors and walls.
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Old 12-28-2021, 08:52 PM
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Doesn't matter - the use of deadly force was either justified or not, and it's mighty clear to me it wasn't. The method employed is a side issue.

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Old 12-28-2021, 08:58 PM
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Doesn't matter - the use of deadly force was either justified or not, and it's mighty clear to me it wasn't.
I bet the severely beaten lady would disagree. The police have to have the most thankless job in the history of the world. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They are in a no win situation no matter what they do anymore.
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Old 12-28-2021, 09:01 PM
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Nonsense. When police follow their training and policies, the result is nearly always a good one. It's not 'backing the blue' if one endorses clearly inappropriate actions.

https://lapdonlinestrgeacc.blob.core...-Revised-1.pdf

California Penal Code SS 835a (2020) :: 2020 California Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

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Old 12-28-2021, 11:10 PM
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I bet the severely beaten lady would disagree. The police have to have the most thankless job in the history of the world. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They are in a no win situation no matter what they do anymore.
If the job of the police is thankless, if the victim of the beating holds some opinion: none of that addresses whether the shots should have been fired, and how they should have been fired.

Interesting that some members who are LEO are critical of LAPD after they see the video.

I'm not LEO, but EDC. If the crazy was beating a woman with a lock on a chain, I'd have fired (this is assuming TX). If he was approaching another customer with said weapon, I'd have fired.
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Old 12-28-2021, 11:18 PM
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It was not Texas, but California. The decedent was not in the act of beating the woman when shot; he was several feet distant and trying to run.

If a civilian killed this whacko in the circumstance of trying to stop the escape of someone who had beaten a woman with a bike lock and chain, then was running away and who was not an imminent threat to him or her (hard to be imminently threatening while running away), then the civilian would be in jail.

What legal authority does an 'EDC' have to make arrests and prevent escapes?


California Penal Code
CHAPTER 1. Homicide [187 - 199] ( Chapter 1 enacted 1872. )

197.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

(1) When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.

(2) When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein.

(3) When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a spouse, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he or she was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed.

(4) When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

(Amended by Stats. 2016, Ch. 50, Sec. 67. (SB 1005) Effective January 1, 2017.)



And the current CA jury instruction:


B. JUSTIFICATIONS AND EXCUSES
505.Justifiable Homicide: Self-Defense or Defense of Another

The defendant is not guilty of (murder/ [or] manslaughter/ attemptedmurder/ [or] attempted voluntary manslaughter) if (he/she) was justified in (killing/attempting to kill) someone in (self-defense/ [or] defense of another).

The defendant acted in lawful (self-defense/ [or] defense of another) if:

1. The defendant reasonably believed that (he/she/ [or] someone else/[or] <insert name or description of third party>) wasin imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury [or was in imminent danger of being(raped/maimed/robbed/ <insert other forcible and atrocious crime>)];

2. The defendant reasonably believed that the immediate use of deadly force was necessary to defend against that danger; AND

3. The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against that danger. Belief in future harm is not sufficient, no matter how great or how likely the harm is believed to be. The defendant must have believed there was imminent danger of death or great bodily injury to (himself/herself/ [or]someone else). Defendant’s belief must have been reasonable and (he/she)must have acted only because of that belief. The defendant is only entitled to use that amount of force that a reasonable person would believe is necessary in the same situation. If the defendant used more force than was reasonable, the [attempted] killing was not justified.

When deciding whether the defendant’s beliefs were reasonable, consider all the circumstances as they were known to and appeared to the defendant and consider what a reasonable person in a similar situation with similar knowledge would have believed. If the defendant’s beliefs were reasonable, the danger does not need to have actually existed.[The defendant’s belief that (he/she/ [or] someone else) was threatened may be reasonable even if (he/she) relied on information that was not true. However, the defendant must actually and reasonably have believed that the information was true.][If you find that <insert name of decedent/victim> threatened or harmed the defendant [or others] in the past, you may consider that information in deciding whether the defendant’s conduct and beliefs were reasonable.]

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Old 12-29-2021, 03:54 AM
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"Clearly," (note the quotes) it was an inappropriate use of deadly force. However, by the time I got to the part where the shooting occurred, I had already seen several minutes of CCTV footage from various perspectives that showed the perpetrator handling the bike lock, slinging it over his shoulder, leaving it on the floor near the escalator, swinging it at various objects and people.

On the other hand, the responding (shooting) officer in front saw all the blood, an incapacitated victim apparently with serious bodily injury, and had less than a second and a half to stop the bad guy from possibly causing death or serious bodily injury to others. There was also the prior report of shots fired.

29:08 "He's got a tube." [Elongated object].

29:12 "He's hitting her now on the right-hand side." [Nothing innovative, elongated objects such as guns can be used as clubs].

I replayed the video around 29:24 several times and I could discern a large black object in the bad guy's left hand that was quickly hidden from view by his body. If cell phones can be mistaken as firearms, an elongated black object (tube) in the hands of a rampaging criminal is worse.

The -Revised-1.pdf document linked above, an easy-to-read document that even defines "serious bodily injury," regarding use of deadly force states:

". . .when the officer reasonably believes, based on the totality of circumstances, that such force is necessary for either of the following reasons:
. . .
To apprehend a FLEEING person for any felony that threatened or resulted in death or serious bodily injury, if the officer reasonably believes that the person will cause death or serious bodily injury to another unless immediately apprehended."

One could argue that the officer should have spent several more seconds interviewing the nearby victim to see if he could get coherent answers from her but in the meantime, there could be more victims of "death or serious bodily injury."

I don't know what level of certainty LEOs get regarding a situation, but if there's any possibility of a bad guy with a firearm, I would expect them to err on the side of safety (their own and others).

I feel sorry for the 14 year old that was shot. While it doesn't lessen the pain, I hope her family gets decent compensation.

On the other hand, the bad guy's family would get in on the game. Doesn't matter if they were estranged and hated him, but they'll go for as much dinero ($) as they can to address their "pain and suffering" and the loss of their "loved one" who was "turning his life around."

Nothing to add to the O.P. caliber discussion. Happy New Year to all of you!
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Old 12-29-2021, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
It was not Texas, but California. The decedent was not in the act of beating the woman when shot; he was several feet distant and trying to run.

If a civilian killed this whacko in the circumstance of trying to stop the escape of someone who had beaten a woman with a bike lock and chain, then was running away and who was not an imminent threat to him or her (hard to be imminently threatening while running away), then the civilian would be in jail.

What legal authority does an 'EDC' have to make arrests and prevent escapes?
Please don't let your legal hogwash prevent a CCW holder from an opportunity to use "suppressive" fire. Such a buzzkill.
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Old 12-29-2021, 10:39 AM
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Pretty much everything penetrates drywall, including .410 Birdshot, so seeking a Home Defense cartridge/load that won't penetrate drywall yet is still powerful enough to stop a threat is a fool's errand.

If you're worried about collateral damage in a Home Defense scenario, then I would sooner recommend lining your interior walls with tile or something else that may slow down, break up, or stop projectiles than try to find a new cartridge or load which won't penetrate drywall, at least then you have the fringe benefit of two-way protection which will prevent bullets from entering or exiting your home.
People may say that it's equally if not more ridiculous to attempt to make your interior walls bulletproof as it is to seek a load that cannot penetrate walls, but if you're going to do one or the other, then might as well make it one which is less expensive and offers two-way protection.
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Old 12-29-2021, 11:06 AM
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My take on this, all other considerations aside, is that everyone who carries a firearm needs to train to be able to hit the intended target. Misses can have have dire consequences. Marksmanship tops all other training, i.e. fast draw, fast initial shot, fast reloading, engaging multiple targets, shooting and moving, et al.
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Old 12-29-2021, 11:27 AM
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Please don't let your legal hogwash prevent a CCW holder from an opportunity to use "suppressive" fire. Such a buzzkill.

Guess I'm just Debbie Downer (kicks dirt).
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Old 12-29-2021, 11:31 AM
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I don't know what level of certainty LEOs get regarding a situation, but if there's any possibility of a bad guy with a firearm, I would expect them to err on the side of safety (their own and others).


Police officers get no leeway when deciding on deadly force. Their actions will be examined by internal affairs, review panels, often grand juries, occasionally criminal courts, very often civil court. For years. You need to be right. It comes with the job - policing is an armed service.

Do recall the 'totality of the circumstances' test. There were at least five LAPD officers within 20 or 30 feet of the suspect, with more covering every entrance/exit, and even more coming up the escalator; they were on the second floor of a department store. Whacko Walliy wasn't getting away.

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Old 12-29-2021, 11:49 AM
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from a blog I suscribe to:

Correcting an Assumption:
The shot that pierced the wall of a dressing room of a North Hollywood Burlington store, killing a 14-year-old girl, is now reported as having been fired from an LAPD officer's rifle, not a handgun as I assumed. Two years ago, LAPD was reportedly using a Black Hills 5.56mm round load with a 50 gr. all-copper Barnes TSX bullet. Assuming no change, I suspect that the “monolithic” composition of the allowed the bullet to remain intact as it ricocheted and penetrated the interior wall. The lead-core, 55 gr. bullet of the original M193 5.56mm round typically starts to yaw on entering a frame-stucco wall, then snaps in two at the crimping cannelure before reaching the far side of the wall. Interior walls are another matter and “skipping” off a floor would likely reduce velocity to some degree; in one image from the video, the flooring in the corridor where the shot was fired appears to be of very smooth, shiny tile.

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Old 12-29-2021, 11:54 AM
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"The lead-core, 55 gr. bullet of the original M193 5.56mm round typically starts to yaw on entering a frame-stucco wall, then snaps in two at the crimping cannelure before reaching the far side of the wall."

That's not what actually happened in the 4 police shootings I've attended wherein M193 ball was used from 20" barreled rifles.

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Old 12-29-2021, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
Frankly, my concern would be why when of 4 or 5 officers together responding that knew the suspect was, " ....hitting her on the side of the head..." from dispatch, one or two immediately fired on the suspect who was several feet away from the victim, not attacking her, trying to leave (meaning escape), and who did not have a firearm or knife in his hand, but a chain and lock.

Listen to dispatch; watch what happened. Not good for risk management.
That too is a (separate and distinct) concern.

As to the shooting itself I have a lot of questions similar to the issues you raised. There is going to be a lot of recordings and video footage reviewed which will hopefully clear us those concerns/questions.
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Old 12-29-2021, 01:15 PM
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I think we all just need a double barelled shotgun, you can rack it and fire one shot into the air, all the bad guys will just run away. Joe Biden
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Old 12-29-2021, 06:59 PM
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"Please don't let your legal hogwash prevent a CCW holder from an opportunity to use "suppressive" fire. Such a buzzkill."

Guess I'm just Debbie Downer (kicks dirt). biku324

I was really hoping the quoted comment was sarcasm.

Note to moderators: the quote function isn't working as intended.

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Old 12-30-2021, 02:05 PM
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The outcome was bad.

The shooting may or may not have been flawed, although I am not bothered by violent offenders dying as a result of their actions. In retrospect, the dissent in Garner was right.

The PLATFORM was not the problem - and that is what I meant about crybabies.
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Old 01-01-2022, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte Smitten Wesson View Post

If you're worried about collateral damage in a Home Defense scenario, then I would sooner recommend lining your interior walls with tile or something else that may slow down, break up, or stop projectiles than try to find a new cartridge or load which won't penetrate drywall, at least then you have the fringe benefit of two-way protection which will prevent bullets from entering or exiting your home.
A very simple and effective barrier is a bookcase, loaded with books, or standing magazines. Packed, dry paper will stop most bullets.
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Old 01-01-2022, 12:43 PM
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Gamecock wrote: A very simple and effective barrier is a bookcase, loaded with books, or standing magazines. Packed, dry paper will stop most bullets.

Thanks. The area in question at my place is a bit too tight for a bookcase, but would 5/8" plywood covered by some sort of metal, say of the Simpson Strong Tie type used for earthquake and hurricane retrofits, suffice?
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Old 01-01-2022, 12:51 PM
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I'd call my local police department and find out what rounds they are using in their duty weapons if I were concerned about over penetration and criminal or civil action.

I'd focus most of my attention on hardening the house from home invasion attacks to give me more time to react to a threat by arming myself, retreating to a secured safe room (MBR with a secure bar on the locked door), and calling 911. I'd be sure to stay on the line so there would be a recording that I had warned the intruder(s) that I was armed, that I'd shoot if they broke into my room, and 911 had been called and police were responding.
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Old 01-01-2022, 12:56 PM
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I'd move if gunfire at my house was that much of a concern.
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Old 01-01-2022, 02:01 PM
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Back to 12 gauge shotguns, I'm a newbie, though I understand #00 and #4 buckshot. I've never heard of #0 buckshot:

12 Gauge | Buckshot | 0B Shot | Aguila Ammunition

Would it have less over-penetration than #00?

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Old 01-01-2022, 06:06 PM
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sheet rock is far from a barrier
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Old 01-02-2022, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks. The area in question at my place is a bit too tight for a bookcase, but would 5/8" plywood covered by some sort of metal, say of the Simpson Strong Tie type used for earthquake and hurricane retrofits, suffice?
Sorry, don't know. Just know about bookcases. I don't know what Simpson Strong Tie is.

HOWEVER, it's something you can test. Make up a sample and take it to the range. Which sounds like a fun project to me.

I assume a metal plate barrier will introduce a new concern: ricochets.
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