Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense
Acebeam

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-25-2021, 06:02 AM
giants1 giants1 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 218
Likes: 317
Liked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting

LAPD accidentally killed a teenager in a Burlington Coat Factory dreessing room on December 23:

North Hollywood Burlington shooting: Teen was killed in a store after police officer's shot penetrates wall of dressing room, officials say - CNN

Updated article:
'''A horrible scene''' inside Burlington dressing room where LAPD fatally shot girl - Los Angeles Times

LAPD presumes that it was one and only shot from one of the cops. I know that LAPD uses 9mm hollow points and FN 590 MRD-LE pistols. I presume that the the dressing room was made of sheetrock. However, it's unclear whether the round hit the suspect, then hit the victim or directly hit the victim, or whether multiple shots hit the victim.

I have a Glock 17 with 9mm hollow point rounds in a detached house with sheetrock, one adult family member, and stucco walls. Neighbors are on two sides with stucco walls.

I didn't think that a 9mm round would over-penetrate in the LAPD's situation. Thoughts?

Last edited by giants1; 12-25-2021 at 04:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-25-2021, 06:38 AM
sheppard sheppard is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: PA
Posts: 181
Likes: 11
Liked 241 Times in 113 Posts
Default

One of the reasons the US Army wanted to adopt the 9x19 cartridge back in the 1940s soon after the end of WW2 was the superior penetration ability of the nine compared to the .45 ACP. This was based on testing done in 1946. It didn't happen because the Army had lots of .45s and handguns are low on the totem pole of weapons acquisition.

I suspect that what happened in CA was many shots fired by the police, some of which missed. One of those misses penetrated the wall of the changing room and killed the girl.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 12-25-2021, 08:37 AM
rogerwnuss's Avatar
rogerwnuss rogerwnuss is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Spfld., IL.
Posts: 484
Likes: 845
Liked 501 Times in 206 Posts
Default

Jhp would tend to fill with whatever they went thru and not expand, I believe. They don't behave the same as penetrating soft tissue. Very sad. As a father of four, that story makes my heart hurt ...
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 12-25-2021, 09:15 AM
Old cop Old cop is offline
US Veteran
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,216
Likes: 3,527
Liked 13,323 Times in 3,721 Posts
Default

I’m wondering if the .38 service ammo we carried (FBI +P) would have done the same thing.
__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 12-25-2021, 09:52 AM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 2,945
Likes: 13
Liked 4,131 Times in 1,387 Posts
Default

No caliber or load can be considered safe when it comes to overpenetration. Why? Because if it's too puny to penetrate ANY wall under ALL circumstances, it will not be fit for self-defense use. People often think of "overpenetration" as passing through an individual, then having steam to pass thru a wall as well; but often it's a pure miss. In that case, there can be absolutely no certainty that the round will not penetrate a wall. After all, some "walls" (and likely this one) are nothing but one or two sheets of wallboard -- something a decent BB rifle can penetrate.

So if concern about overpenetration is the prime factor in your self-defense choice, stick to a baseball bat. To me it's akin to folks who worry about protecting their hearing in a self-defense shooting -- I value my hearing, but I will NOT be groping around for my earmuffs in the middle of the night before engaging the invader standing in my bedroom.
__________________
Pisgah
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-25-2021, 10:21 AM
Buford57 Buford57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 213
Liked 3,557 Times in 1,179 Posts
Default

The questions raised here all have to be answered before any conclusions can be drawn: was this a round that penetrated the intended target or a miss? What was the composition of the wall?

An even bigger question is whether the handgun was the appropriate tool for ending the attack the officers were called to stop, given the crowded setting. Prepare for State v. Potter 2.0. Among the questions that have to be answered in that microsecond are not only Can I shoot? But also Must I shoot? And What will happen when I shoot? I know this is the S&W forum, not the Taser forum or Monadnock forum or hand to hand combat forum, but sometimes caliber or ammo choice isn't even in the equation.
__________________
I need ammo, not a ride.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-25-2021, 10:58 AM
djohns6 djohns6 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 592
Likes: 311
Liked 856 Times in 314 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buford57 View Post
The questions raised here all have to be answered before any conclusions can be drawn: was this a round that penetrated the intended target or a miss? What was the composition of the wall?

An even bigger question is whether the handgun was the appropriate tool for ending the attack the officers were called to stop, given the crowded setting. Prepare for State v. Potter 2.0. Among the questions that have to be answered in that microsecond are not only Can I shoot? But also Must I shoot? And What will happen when I shoot? I know this is the S&W forum, not the Taser forum or Monadnock forum or hand to hand combat forum, but sometimes caliber or ammo choice isn't even in the equation.
Officers were told that it was a possible shooting . Tasers and PR-24's were probably nowhere on their radar .
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 12-25-2021, 11:05 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 689
Liked 3,621 Times in 1,845 Posts
Default

First and foremost, as hinted above, any projectile capable of causing death or serious bodily injury is going to pass through drywall/sheet rock interior partitions like it wasn't there. The only thing I've found that stopped within the wall was a .177 pellet at about 300 f/s. There's virtually no projectile that turns into pixie dust if it misses it's primary target. Ranges inside houses are generally close: practice, practice, practice.

In addition to the radio message about "possible shooting", it's noted in the article that the perpetrator appears to have been carrying a bicycle cable/chain lock. This is a "harmless" apparently non threatening item frequently carried and used as a street weapon. Similar devices were used in medieval times, and far more recently. While not named in the "knives, dirks, daggers, etc" chant of deadly weapons in statute law, it is, in fact a deadly weapon-if used as one. Apparently, it was used in an attack on someone in the store.

As for judging the actions of responding officers, none of us were there. De-escalation may not have been on the actors/perpetrators/subjects hard drive.

Last edited by WR Moore; 12-25-2021 at 11:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 12-25-2021, 11:09 AM
Univibe Univibe is offline
Banned
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: TX
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 10
Liked 2,141 Times in 853 Posts
Default

Any bullet or shot load that will stop a thug will also penetrate wallboard.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 12-25-2021, 11:13 AM
yrunvs's Avatar
yrunvs yrunvs is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Prior Lake Mn.
Posts: 25
Likes: 61
Liked 44 Times in 12 Posts
Default

The article is from CNN. Didn't read.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-25-2021, 11:18 AM
murphydog's Avatar
murphydog murphydog is offline
Moderator
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,390
Likes: 300
Liked 15,364 Times in 7,839 Posts
Default

Not enough details to know what happened. LAPD primarily uses 9 mm but in a variety of platforms but also other calibers.

A tragic situation all around.
__________________
Alan
SWCA 2023, SWHF 220
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 12-25-2021, 11:19 AM
AlHunt AlHunt is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,033
Likes: 4,594
Liked 2,309 Times in 1,051 Posts
Default

Knowing the backdrop in your own home is different than a law enforcement shooting in a public place. Everybody's home situation is different but a person usually knows what lies beyond in all directions in their own home.
__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-25-2021, 12:08 PM
Univibe Univibe is offline
Banned
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: TX
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 10
Liked 2,141 Times in 853 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yrunvs View Post
The article is from CNN. Didn't read.
Did it appear on Fox?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-25-2021, 12:20 PM
max503's Avatar
max503 max503 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: So. Illinois
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 933
Liked 2,508 Times in 1,082 Posts
Default

Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 12-25-2021, 12:21 PM
Heinz Heinz is offline
SWCA Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: South Carolina upstate
Posts: 554
Likes: 618
Liked 886 Times in 342 Posts
Default

The news reports I find are all from the LA sources. The press/TV there have a history of anti-gun, anti-police bias, so it may take some time for all the actual facts to surface.
__________________
Kind regards, Heinz
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 12-25-2021, 12:25 PM
Univibe Univibe is offline
Banned
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: TX
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 10
Liked 2,141 Times in 853 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by max503 View Post
Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia
Rounds that penetrate to a vital organ stop bad guys. Rounds that don't penetrate, don't.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 12-25-2021, 12:49 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 689
Liked 3,621 Times in 1,845 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by max503 View Post
Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia
It was designed to "splatter" on a hard surface and not ricochet. A close friend discovered it penetrated drywall with ease when they didn't verify unloaded status by sight and feel.

I used it quite a bit at one time to eliminate predators in pastures filled with very expensive critters. I wasn't impressed.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-25-2021, 01:01 PM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
SWCA Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Peoples Republic of Calif
Posts: 3,839
Likes: 905
Liked 4,191 Times in 1,616 Posts
Default

A decent air gun will penetrate thru one layer of sheet rock. It is not like they harden, or even insulate, changing rooms.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-25-2021, 01:20 PM
Buford57 Buford57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 213
Liked 3,557 Times in 1,179 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by djohns6 View Post
Officers were told that it was a possible shooting . Tasers and PR-24's were probably nowhere on their radar .
Constant reevaluation based on observation. Probably not all the facts are known at this time and they certainly haven't been made public.
__________________
I need ammo, not a ride.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-25-2021, 01:27 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 2,431
Liked 9,693 Times in 2,631 Posts
Default

It still goes back to the basic rules of gun safety. In this case knowing your target and what is beyond it.

Know your house and know what is behind various interior and exterior walls. Choose your fields of fire appropriate in advance.

Also consider who is where in your house and make sure spouse, kids, etc know where they are supposed to go in a home invasion. As much as possible it should be low to the floor behind cover when possible. And, knowing where they are supposed to be further dictates your positioning and fields of fire.

You then call 911, keep the line open and position yourself according to your pre arranged fields of fire and assess and if needed shoot the threat when it appears in that field of fire.

ó-

In short, assessment and pre planning are far more important than caliber selection.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 12-25-2021, 01:32 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 2,431
Liked 9,693 Times in 2,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buford57 View Post
Constant reevaluation based on observation. Probably not all the facts are known at this time and they certainly haven't been made public.
Agreed. This is the piece that is often missing in those high profile shoots that donít reflect well on a department.

Officers simply cannot roll up on a scene, assuming they know what is going on, and then try to control the scene and or start using force without taking at least a few seconds to assess what is happening - and then constantly re-assess and keep an open mind as they learn more as things evolve.

That guy trying to get a kid in his car may in fact be the custodial parent getting his kid back from the mom who kidnapped the kid. Yet more often than, not heís likely to be shot or tased if the officers donít slow things down and assess before taking decisive action.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-25-2021, 01:58 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: All over Florida
Posts: 729
Likes: 19
Liked 3,971 Times in 719 Posts
Default

Thin drywall will only provide concealment, not cover. This would have happened with powder puff .38 Special or even with .32 ACP.

Horrible thing for the victim and officer involved.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 12-25-2021, 02:20 PM
minconrevo minconrevo is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 628
Likes: 97
Liked 387 Times in 213 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by max503 View Post
Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia
The Glaser was intended to break up on hard surfaces, like marble walls in court houses or a little less. Individuals shot with a Glaser were a tough repair job for a skilled surgeon, if they could be fixed.

The occasional snake I've needed to shoot with a plastic .38 shot capsule usually died of the plastic hit to the head, more than the #12 shot. That plastic killed 'em dead right then.

Maybe one of those plastic snake capsules would not penetrate more than 1-2 standard sheets of drywall but haven't tested. The stopping power of one of those snake capsules on a two legged "snake" would be likely near non-existant.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-25-2021, 02:39 PM
cracker57 cracker57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 625
Likes: 723
Liked 569 Times in 236 Posts
Default

if you were a cop would you want glaser safety slugs in your gun?
I hope enough said....
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 12-25-2021, 07:04 PM
stanmerrell stanmerrell is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 259
Likes: 223
Liked 277 Times in 134 Posts
Default

So sorry to learn about this shooting. 9mm or other popular rounds will retain killing power after penetrating a thin layer of the types of material separating dressing rooms. This is why responsible shooters must practice routinely. Hitting what you are shooting at is more important than any other factor in a gun fight.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-26-2021, 12:13 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 2,431
Liked 9,693 Times in 2,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanmerrell View Post
So sorry to learn about this shooting. 9mm or other popular rounds will retain killing power after penetrating a thin layer of the types of material separating dressing rooms. This is why responsible shooters must practice routinely. Hitting what you are shooting at is more important than any other factor in a gun fight.
Exactly. Armed citizens also need to be very aware of the differences between law enforcement officers and armed citizens.

1) Armed citizens should not be going into situations looking for bad guys. Instead, they need to use good situational awareness to avoid or worst case retreat from situations where they may have to shoot.

2) the average law enforcement officer isnít a firearms expert and in fact is a pretty poor shot. Most do not shoot recreationally and instead only shoot the minimum required to qualify once or twice per year.

3) the average LEO however also has limited immunity, department liability insurance, department funded attorneys, and a fairly large latitude from the court when it comes to mistake of fact shootings (although that does seem to be getting a bit thin over the last couple years).

In contrast, an armed citizen fully owns 100% of the civil and criminal liability attached to each and every round and every person or thing it hits after leaving the muzzle.

Yet surprisingly I still see and hear from armed citizens who carry hard to master handguns like a lightweight J frame that they shoot very infrequently and very poorly. At best under extreme stress theyíll point it in the general direction of the threat and start jerking the trigger. Lord help anyone in that general direction, and Lord help that armed citizen when the butcherís bill comes due.

The saving grace here is that vast majority of defensive handgun uses donít actually proceed far enough for the gun to be fired.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 12-26-2021, 04:38 PM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 6,528
Likes: 11,621
Liked 7,589 Times in 3,081 Posts
Default

There will be a state law wrongful death claim, and it will be paid. But:

LAPD used to be a leader in training their folks with firearms. Marksmanship under stress was a big deal, and they had a high standard. Such training has been cut a lot according to sources - even for the SWAT folks. Not a good situation.

Penetration is necessary in order to reliably stop bad guys. A pistol is generally not a good choice, but used because it is present. It has been pretty well known in the terminal ballistics community that duty rounds from a pistol will penetrate most residential walls; the FBI folks did some research and found that duty ammo from an AR (5.56X45) is less likely to penetrate such walls.

This is tragic. The facts will take a while to determine, but the odds of this being misconduct are very slight. Contrary to the popular disinformation, hesitancy is far too risky most of the time, and the use of less than lethal options is neither wise nor ethical. American LE kills a very small percentage of the offenders it would be justified in killing, and unlike the fabricated discourse and the insanity from the Balko-Wexler axis of evil, the offender is the one responsible for that use of force. Immediate compliance is a mandate of both constitutional and statutory law. Period. Resistance is both unlawful and an indictor of violence toward cops and others. Overcoming it as rapidly as possible is not optional.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #28  
Old 12-26-2021, 04:59 PM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 8,177
Liked 7,180 Times in 2,220 Posts
Default

Back to the tech issue, it is really hard to make valid predictions on bullet penetration and effect.

Our Silver City office was shot up by a dimwit with a 9mm who emptied a magazine through a heavy glass window, then rode his motorcycle away, giggling (until caught). While the 124 grain FMJ bullets all went through the window, some stopped on office furniture, file cabinets, and one in the VCR we used to review patrol video. Three stopped most of the way through a drywall office wall, and one made it through that office wall, struck the opposite wall, bounced off and fell on the hallway carpet. There was no one in the office, but unless they had just walked into a bullet, no one in normal workstations would have been hit.

Then there was 'Tony,' envirowhacko who humped over 10 miles across desert to shoot 25 or 26 cows he thought were destroying desert riparian areas (not clear how empty arroyos have 'riparian areas'). A Livestock Board officer and a sheriff's deputy tracked him from the dead cows to his house; they questioned him until he refused to talk, then came back with a warrant. They found him dead on the floor - he put a 9mm in his mouth - the 115 grain HP (I think it was Federal) made it through his hard palate, through his brain, but did not fully penetrate his skull (from the inside).

What I'm saying is what might or could happen often won't or doesn't. Accurately predicting what will happen is for people using firearms for research in controlled conditions.

Last edited by biku324; 12-27-2021 at 12:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #29  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:23 AM
chief38's Avatar
chief38 chief38 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,073
Likes: 6,314
Liked 18,867 Times in 6,802 Posts
Default

Don't judge any bullet by a shooting or two! You need to look at it over a long term history, in multiple scenarios, environments and weather conditions. There literally is no "magic bullet" and even so called excellent bullets might act weirdly in some environments when shot at certain angles and depending on what they strike.

I am no ballistics statistician but for over 100 years the 9mm has worked pretty well IMHO. Again, there is no absolute magic bullet!
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:35 AM
kamloops67's Avatar
kamloops67 kamloops67 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: kamloops, bc
Posts: 2,425
Likes: 5,977
Liked 2,749 Times in 1,056 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
First and foremost, as hinted above, any projectile capable of causing death or serious bodily injury is going to pass through drywall/sheet rock interior partitions like it wasn't there. The only thing I've found that stopped within the wall was a .177 pellet at about 300 f/s. There's virtually no projectile that turns into pixie dust if it misses it's primary target. Ranges inside houses are generally close: practice, practice, practice.

In addition to the radio message about "possible shooting", it's noted in the article that the perpetrator appears to have been carrying a bicycle cable/chain lock. This is a "harmless" apparently non threatening item frequently carried and used as a street weapon. Similar devices were used in medieval times, and far more recently. While not named in the "knives, dirks, daggers, etc" chant of deadly weapons in statute law, it is, in fact a deadly weapon-if used as one. Apparently, it was used in an attack on someone in the store.

As for judging the actions of responding officers, none of us were there. De-escalation may not have been on the actors/perpetrators/subjects hard drive.
I donít think you get to say, ď you werenít there, so you canít judge ďwhen there is a dead inoccent child on the scene
Obviously , someone screwed up big time !
__________________
the rules? there are no rules
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-27-2021, 12:02 PM
K Frame Keith's Avatar
K Frame Keith K Frame Keith is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pike County PA
Posts: 922
Likes: 1,380
Liked 1,777 Times in 560 Posts
Default

A New Jersey State Rangemaster named John Zamrock once did a study on Sheetrock penetration by commonly used law enforcement ammunition. If I remember correctly he focused on 5.56 ammo. I canít find a copy at this time. Bullets react unpredictability in sheetrock. High velocity rounds commonly fragment, limiting penetration. Some 5.56 ammo penetrates less than handgun ammo. I remember firing a 9mm silvertip into Sheetrock; it fragmented at 2 sheets but the 147 grain black talon punched thru everything. Moral of the lesson: Sheetrock canít be depended on to stop anything.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-27-2021, 12:15 PM
oink oink is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Southern FL, East side.
Posts: 1,765
Likes: 1,768
Liked 2,312 Times in 959 Posts
Default

I don't know if anyone besides the dirtbag screwed up badly. I haven't invested any time into learning more about the incident.

I will share my outlier opinion on ammunition for civilian EDC. I don't think civilians need ammo that achieves the barrier penetration desired by the FBI, or penetration in general. I won't be shooting through vehicles, etc. I'm more concerned about over penetration and I'm willing to accept the risk that comes with quick expanding ammo that dumps it's energy early.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #33  
Old 12-27-2021, 12:29 PM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 8,177
Liked 7,180 Times in 2,220 Posts
Default

On the LAPD incident that left the 14 year old dead....

Current training for two or more officers and a lightly armed (no gun or knife) suspect would be one officer using a less-lethal option (tazer, OC, maybe baton) while the other officer(s) covered with a deadly force option at the ready. In the real world it's hard to coordinate that well at high speed, high stress, and with large agency (or multiple agency) officers who may not know each other well.

Last edited by biku324; 12-27-2021 at 12:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-27-2021, 12:45 PM
redlevel's Avatar
redlevel redlevel is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 5,649
Likes: 7,747
Liked 11,924 Times in 2,365 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
Exactly. Armed citizens also need to be very aware of the differences between law enforcement officers and armed citizens.

1) Armed citizens should not be going into situations looking for bad guys. Instead, they need to use good situational awareness to avoid or worst case retreat from situations where they may have to shoot.

2) the average law enforcement officer isnít a firearms expert and in fact is a pretty poor shot. Most do not shoot recreationally and instead only shoot the minimum required to qualify once or twice per year.

3) the average LEO however also has limited immunity, department liability insurance, department funded attorneys, and a fairly large latitude from the court when it comes to mistake of fact shootings (although that does seem to be getting a bit thin over the last couple years).

In contrast, an armed citizen fully owns 100% of the civil and criminal liability attached to each and every round and every person or thing it hits after leaving the muzzle.

Yet surprisingly I still see and hear from armed citizens who carry hard to master handguns like a lightweight J frame that they shoot very infrequently and very poorly. At best under extreme stress theyíll point it in the general direction of the threat and start jerking the trigger. Lord help anyone in that general direction, and Lord help that armed citizen when the butcherís bill comes due.

The saving grace here is that vast majority of defensive handgun uses donít actually proceed far enough for the gun to be fired.
I agree with most of your analysis.
However, I would opine that the average citizen who practices infrequently
and carries a high-cap semi-automatic handgun and employs a ďspray and prayĒ
tactic is a whole lot more dangerous than the j-frame guy.
__________________
Georgia On My Mind
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #35  
Old 12-27-2021, 01:00 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 174
Liked 1,886 Times in 811 Posts
Default

I would not base my decision on something like that on a single incident.
Bullets go thru walls.
Any bullet at any time, depending on how the wall is built. Very likely the wall in question was built with a minimum of materials.
Itís a chance some of us may have to take someday.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 12-28-2021 at 12:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 12-27-2021, 01:33 PM
Gamecock's Avatar
Gamecock Gamecock is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SC
Posts: 3,205
Likes: 520
Liked 3,267 Times in 1,450 Posts
Default

Ballistic personal defense weapons work by penetration.

If penetration gives you concerns, don't use a gun. Attempts to manage penetration will fail.

"Know your target and what is beyond." - NRA
__________________
I've still got it made.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-27-2021, 02:28 PM
CA Escapee CA Escapee is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 680
Likes: 40
Liked 736 Times in 324 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
I don't know if anyone besides the dirtbag screwed up badly. I haven't invested any time into learning more about the incident.

I will share my outlier opinion on ammunition for civilian EDC. I don't think civilians need ammo that achieves the barrier penetration desired by the FBI, or penetration in general. I won't be shooting through vehicles, etc. I'm more concerned about over penetration and I'm willing to accept the risk that comes with quick expanding ammo that dumps it's energy early.
Hornady Critical Defense ammo wasn't designed to meet the FBI penetration tests, penetrating sheet metal, windshields, drywall, etc. It will penetrate soft targets and not over-penetrate per the designer, Dave Emary. That's what I use for the welcoming committee in my apartment. That could be an option. (Hornady Critical Duty ammo is designed to meet FBI penetration tests.)

Last edited by CA Escapee; 12-27-2021 at 02:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-27-2021, 09:48 PM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 8,177
Liked 7,180 Times in 2,220 Posts
Default

Well, forget all of the 9mm drama. Two of the 4 LAPD officers who killed the perp (and accidentally, the girl), had AR-15 rifles. The video starts at 1:11 on this link. LAPD releases bodycam video in fatal shooting at Burlington store

Last edited by biku324; 12-27-2021 at 09:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #39  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:09 PM
giants1 giants1 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 218
Likes: 317
Liked 58 Times in 44 Posts
Default

Thanks. I wonder what type of ammo they use in that AR-15 that over-penetrated?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #40  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:23 PM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 8,177
Liked 7,180 Times in 2,220 Posts
Default

I'm not aware of much 5.56 ammo that does not completely penetrate human beings, particularly when fired from within a few yards.

Remember the reliability problem for the rifle as well. When the NMSP first issued us patrol rifles, Colt HBARs, in the early '90s, the dimwit sycophant who had the Chief's ear convinced him to get Federal 68 grain match hollowpoint. Stupid, stupid, stupid - that ammo was not crimped, and the hollowpoint would very often catch on the sharp locking lug recess points and get shoved back deeply into the case. That caused 1) a malfunction, or 2) a round that continued into the chamber and fired at MUCH higher pressure. We occasionally found ruptured cases and blown primers on the range after qualification. It was so bad the Chief finally allowed the one-third of us or so whose weapons wouldn't fire that ammo reliably to use the training ammo, M193 ball - we had to write a letter endorsed by the rangemaster to get permission to use ball on duty.

We tried 40 grain SP in the late 90s/early 2000s for SRT use in another agency, but the one shooting I saw with that ammo was also a passthrough.

Last edited by biku324; 12-28-2021 at 12:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #41  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:25 PM
Univibe Univibe is offline
Banned
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: TX
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 10
Liked 2,141 Times in 853 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock View Post
Ballistic personal defense weapons work by penetration.

If penetration gives you concerns, don't use a gun. Attempts to manage penetration will fail.

"Know your target and what is beyond." - NRA
Gamecock speaks a great truth.

That's why Univibe uses 124 grain NATO ball in all his self defense weapons. Because it WILL penetrate.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:36 PM
RCL-09 RCL-09 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 513
Likes: 218
Liked 999 Times in 298 Posts
Default


The total lack of awareness and cluelessness of so many of those "shoppers" who are wandering around and walking right into/up to the assailant is mind boggling.

What a terrible tragedy for the family of the 14 year old and the officers involved.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #43  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:38 PM
RCL-09 RCL-09 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 513
Likes: 218
Liked 999 Times in 298 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by giants1 View Post
Thanks. I wonder what type of ammo they use in that AR-15 that over-penetrated?
I believe the round that killed the girl was a miss that did not hit the suspect.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #44  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:50 PM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is offline
US Veteran
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 11,052
Likes: 8,688
Liked 29,466 Times in 7,805 Posts
Default

Sheet rock and penetration

Years ago I bought some of those 38 cal. Speer plastic bullets and plastic cases that snapped together and you pressed a primer into the case for power. Those light plastic bullets with flat tips went through a cardboard target and stuck in a 5/8" sheet rock wall much to my surprise. Thinking any kind of real round wouldn't go through a sheet rock wall is folly.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #45  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:51 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 2,431
Liked 9,693 Times in 2,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redlevel View Post
I agree with most of your analysis.
However, I would opine that the average citizen who practices infrequently
and carries a high-cap semi-automatic handgun and employs a ďspray and prayĒ
tactic is a whole lot more dangerous than the j-frame guy.
I agree.

Itís just different ends of the continuum. Mr. Airweight J-frame doesnít shoot enough to ever shoot that gun accurately and sprays 5 rounds down range.

If Mr. High Capacity Semi-auto also doesnít practice, heís probably banking on more rounds making up for the lack of marksmanship. But Iím not sure heíll really get many more rounds off before heís shot and killed or the assailant leaves. Itís extremely rare for more than 5 shots to be fired even in a multiple officers involved law enforcement shoot.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #46  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:51 PM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 8,177
Liked 7,180 Times in 2,220 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09 View Post
I believe the round that killed the girl was a miss that did not hit the suspect.
It's not directly relevant, but do know that 'RCL-09' is very precisely the US-funded Philippine National Police Regional Crime Lab in Zamboanga City.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #47  
Old 12-27-2021, 10:56 PM
RCL-09 RCL-09 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 513
Likes: 218
Liked 999 Times in 298 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
It's not directly relevant, but do know that 'RCL-09' is very precisely the US-funded Philippine National Police Regional Crime Lab in Zamboanga City.


Please go to 0:38 on the video...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #48  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:03 PM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 8,177
Liked 7,180 Times in 2,220 Posts
Default

Where in the world did you find that??
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:18 PM
RCL-09 RCL-09 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 513
Likes: 218
Liked 999 Times in 298 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
Where in the world did you find that??
It's a scene out of one of my favorite WWII movies "They Were Expendable" When you mentioned Zamboanga I recalled the scene.

Last edited by RCL-09; 12-27-2021 at 11:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #50  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:21 PM
RCL-09 RCL-09 is offline
Member
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 513
Likes: 218
Liked 999 Times in 298 Posts
Default

One concern, among many, relating to this incident is how it might affect the issuance and use of patrol rifles by LEOs. I can see the fact that it was an "assault rifle" frightening and upsetting some.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5.56/223 and home defense sand hawk Ammo 21 05-23-2020 06:01 PM
Best Weapon for Home Defense against Home Invasion? JMichaelTX Concealed Carry & Self Defense 205 12-30-2016 12:51 PM
Home defense steelslaver Concealed Carry & Self Defense 218 08-12-2016 08:36 PM
Hornady Critical Defense or Duty for Home Defense In FS M&P9? .. OR SOMETHING ELSE??? falconman515 Ammo 50 09-02-2014 03:20 PM
Point Shooting for Home Defense Jeffersonwasright Concealed Carry & Self Defense 23 05-23-2013 11:22 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:49 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)