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  #51  
Old 01-02-2022, 12:33 AM
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1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime?  
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Opinions are like ********... everybody has one and their value is equal, including someone's from "Delta Force".

It sounds like a lot of fanboy praise and self-aggrandizement to me, to appeal to the younger "tacticool" crowd.

All handguns have an occasional hiccup, so what's the big deal if you quickly amend the problem? It doesn't matter what you shoot. What matters is training, awareness and experience.

Know your weapon.
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Old 01-02-2022, 01:04 AM
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In .45 ACP both good 1911's and Glocks are serviceable. I've run 100's of thousands through 1911's and 10's of thousands through Glocks. The 1911 has a nicer trigger and is more accurate. The Glock, with just a few mods, becomes pretty decent to shoot, but not up to 1911 standards. The Glock is well up to its intended purpose at less than 1/3 the cost of a good 1911. Both can preserve your hide just fine. Take your pick or maybe get both.
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Old 01-02-2022, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puller View Post
Pretty much what I've learned is folks like to defend their favorite firearm. From 1911's to J-frames to Glocks to Sigs to even a SAA thrown in. People just don't like for their favorite shooting iron to be criticized whatever it may be..
Nope! People will call BS when others post ****. Especially when itís just copy and paste garbage.
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Old 01-02-2022, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWPBR View Post
Puts big holes in bad guys... How is that obsolete?
So does a muzzle-loader. Or a blunderbuss. Or a spear.
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Old 01-02-2022, 02:18 AM
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When I was younger I always wanted a 1911 45ACP.
Revolvers took priority.

Then fortunately in the Spring of 2011 Ruger came
out with their SR1911. I got one then that Spring.

Under $630.00, very well made and finished,
slide to frame tight, safe, accurate and boringly
reliable from the get go. Shot all my different
reloads I tried in it.

I have no doubt that this SR1911 would do
just fine in an emergency. Donít need no
stinking $3200 gun, just donít bring a
knife to a gun fight!
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Old 01-02-2022, 02:29 AM
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I got acquainted with the 1911 at Wheelus Field, Lybia in 1961. Each squadron had an arms room and E-4 and above could check out a weapon and take it to the range on the weekends. If you belonged to the Rod & gun club and had a locker you could keep your GI weapon there and not have to check it back in until you rotated. I checked out a 1911 in '61 and turned it back in in '64. When GI ammo was not available we would use R&G Club reloading equipment and load all week and shoot all day Saturday. I would have loved to keep that 1911, I put a lot of rounds thru it. I had an armorer tune my 1911. Tightened the slide and worked on the trigger. We even cast our own bullets with R&G club equipment. I was given my Dads 1943 Colt 1911a1 that had been tuned to shoot 185gr wadcutters and the only malfunctions I had were with ammo. I have Colt civilian & military, S&W 1911s and 1 RI w/Colt 22 conversion . I have them in .22, 9mm, 38 super, .45 ACP, 9x23 and I'm looking for a Colt 1911 in .40 S&W. Commander and full size. I like 1911s and as I said only malfunctions I have incurred were Magazine or ammo caused. My concealed carry is an M&PC 357 Sig.
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:48 AM
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Larry Vickers and Puller both probably have bigger hands than I do, yet they both make broad pronouncements that seem to ignore that fact. While I lack their experience and know it, they lack my experience and don't know it.

The following pronouncements are true for me, and I don't really care what is true for them.

The 1911 is a classic-weight pistol, which means that it is optimum for bullseye shooting, which is one-handed. This translates well to defensive shooting, as long as the gun is not too heavy to carry. The 1911 is not too heavy to carry - it and a Summer Special are my BEST long-term carry combo.

Glocks are not even in the running. Even if I considered a striker-fired crunchenticker either serious or safe, WHICH I DON'T, the gun does not fit my hand. Why anyone would choose a blocky, sloppy-fitting gun is beyond me. Maybe they fit some folks, but not me.

Most high-cap guns have blocky or excessivel large grip frames. There ARE exceptions, such as second-gen Para-Ord frames, the BHP, and, for me, the M9.

The 1911 is probably the easiest pistol made to detail disassemble. While not the field-strip king by any means, it is certainly acceptable.

It is hard to take seriously someone who recommends high-caps that aren't even usable, and can't carry a slim normal-weight gun like the 1911.
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  #58  
Old 01-02-2022, 07:47 AM
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Never heard of this guy but with many states limiting the round capacity to 10 rounds, the 1911 platform is an ideal choice if you train with it.
Every shooting I've seen over the years involving the 45 ACP pretty much made me a believer of its stopping power.
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Old 01-02-2022, 09:11 AM
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Guess I was shooting 1911ís before Mr. Vickers was born, was in Vietnam before he was born , a NRA instructor before he was born and most likely have fired more rounds than he. Many of us older guys here are in the same boat. Just because some S.F. guy writes a book or 2 and runs some training facility is just that. His opinion is his and he is entitled to it. My opinion is mine based on many, many years of shooting, instructing and using many, many firearms. nuf sed.
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Old 01-02-2022, 09:12 AM
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I have owned and shot a 100 differnt pistols and when I shot a 1911 the trigger was better than any of the others. I shoot the best with a 1911 I make sure mine all work well and only carry the ones that have been shot enough to know the will preform when I need them to (any gun can fail). but it comes down to I think I have the best chance of making the shot i need to make with a 1911. I am not sure when Vickers made that statement but today you can spend $1500 on a Dan wesson and get a gun that works perfect right out to the box and for the $3500 you can get Nighthawks and Wilsons and Baers oh My.

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Old 01-02-2022, 09:40 AM
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If you like your 1911, you can keep your 1911.
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Old 01-02-2022, 10:03 AM
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Wow, I sure wish I had read what Mr. Vickers had to say before I bought myself my Christmas present. People carry 5 or 6 in a revolver, but 7 in a 45 is not enough? I suppose the 30-06 is obsolete too. Just take your 1911, fill it with 230 gr. hardball (that it was designed for) and shoot with confidence. GI's did that in WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam., and there are a lot of dead enemy combatants to prove it.

BTW; Shiney officer's acp is 1985, and been tuned by Colt Custom Shop. Govt Model Xmas present to me
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Old 01-02-2022, 10:08 AM
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Double stacks are OK if they fit your hands. My experience with the M1911 is that thanks to JMB's genius it is a very modular design, very little that new springs, a new ejector, new barrel can't solve. And a good cleaning now and then. I prefer my handguns as stock as possible.
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Old 01-02-2022, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
When I was younger I always wanted a 1911 45ACP.
Revolvers took priority.

Then fortunately in the Spring of 2011 Ruger came
out with their SR1911. I got one then that Spring.

Under $630.00, very well made and finished,
slide to frame tight, safe, accurate and boringly
reliable from the get go. Shot all my different
reloads I tried in it.

I have no doubt that this SR1911 would do
just fine in an emergency. Donít need no
stinking $3200 gun, just donít bring a
knife to a gun fight!
Ruger makes an excellent 1911, especially for the price. Love mine!

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Old 01-02-2022, 10:19 AM
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Default Freedom of choice and speech- what a country!

Happy New Year to all on this great Forum! What a great country we live in. The OP appears to have zip military or LEO experience and is certainly free to express his opinion on anything, but with that said I guess I can too:

1966: I do not recall Uncle Sam (or Sgt. Negron or the LT either) giving me any "choice" of what I wanted to carry..it was a 1911A1. Yep..that is a period. I also don't recall that it was any heavier than the bayonet, scabbard, first-aid kit, mag pouch(es) for the 1911, two canteens and the rest of that stuff we all humped, whether Prick-6, M79, M-14 E2, M60 ammo as an AG...

There were thousands just like me...many of you on this Forum..you remember any choice of what to carry?

1971: 1st free choice of EDC, my pick? Model 36, then 60, up to today 637-2. No gunfights, some questionable situations, 5 rounds always seemed to be enough but now-a-days extra speed strip in pocket.

1961 to present day: Always loved the 1911A1..from the moment one came to our house from DCM for the sum total of $12.62 (shipping included). An Ithaca all original. All in between (Colt's, Remington Rand's, Colt Argentine) gone now except for the Ithaca, but all loved, and shot, and enjoyed for their history and value that made this country what it is. A zillion GI's of all branches carried this platform through so many conflicts..all so the OP and others can express an opinion flaming them.

Like I said......free country, free speech.

Honk if you love it! Honk twice if you like 1911's
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Old 01-02-2022, 10:22 AM
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IMO, there is no other pistol more aesthetically pleasing than a 1911. I do not doubt that there are better pistols out there for combat and self defense. However, in many shooting sports, 1911ís rule the roost.


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  #67  
Old 01-02-2022, 10:25 AM
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This old hunk of junk seems to work pretty well, but perhaps I should send it back to the CMP anyway. Nah, I'll keep it.


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Old 01-02-2022, 10:26 AM
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Larry Vickers Who? Never heard of the guy. If I was taking a firearms class and the instructor was bad mouthing the 1911, I'd ask for my money back.

Obviously, he doesn't know what he's talking about!

Puller, its simple if you don't like 1911's don't buy one!
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Old 01-02-2022, 10:31 AM
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Well I carried a 1911 in the 1980s..... then I discovered 3rd Gen S&Ws and P Series Sigs.

Owned 3 Glocks..... have stuck with the Smiths and Sigs as they work for me!! As a civilian concealed carrier I prefer the DA/SA trigger for self-defense.

The Smiths are no longer made so why would he recommend them... P Series Sigs cost 3X a Glock.

Bill Wilson recommends 1911s and Berettas.

Ernest Langdon recommends Berettas.

Vickers has a Glock special Edition........

Follow the money!!!!!!!!!

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Old 01-02-2022, 10:50 AM
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To flip the coin, some have a real or imagined problem with the 1911. I know his statement about the cost to achieve reliability is false in my experience. Like any gun, they sometimes can benefit from some tuning. But to claim that the design, after 110 years, is inherently unreliable is a bit much.

The fans/detractors of any platform can cherry-pick reasons to justify their position. I've seen Glocks with problems too. I wonder if he would prefer a revolver over a 1911?

He's just "talking his book". He doesn't want to teach users of 1911's. It probably simplifies his life if everybody's carrying the same platform.
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Old 01-02-2022, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I usually carry a revolver, but I would be equally happy with this 76 year old Remington Rand.
My mother-in-law may have helped make that Remington Rand.
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Old 01-02-2022, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puller View Post
"Unless you have $3,500+ to spend on a well fitted and tuned 1911 as well as understand exactly what ammo it personally likes to feed & eat best then, just go buy a Glock!"
-Larry Vickers
Folks, to quote Paul Harvey, "And now, here's the rest of the story."

Of course Vickers is going to say that. Why? Simple. Because the Wilson Combat Vickers Elite 1911 goes for $3990. Why the heck do you think he would say you need to spend at least $3500 for a 1911? It's because he gets a kick back for every Vickers 1911 Wilson Combat sells.

So, it stands to reason that Larry is not going to endorse a purely functional and reliable Rock Island 1911 for $499 because he doesn't get any money from that.

Now you're saying, "Golly, Larry Vickers is ex-Delta Force and he's written some books therefore he must know what he's talking about, but I can't afford $3500, so Larry says I need to buy a Glock"

Guess what! There's also a Glock Vickers Elite package going for a mere $1490! Such a bargain. Whaddya want to bet good ol' Larry gets a kick back on that, too!

And I'll bet that if you enclose an extra twenty-five bucks, Larry will send you an autographed picture with the words, "To my good friend (fill in your name), from your ex-Delta Force pal, Larry Vickers."

So, bottom line...the only reason Larry says what he says is strictly because he's lining his pockets. Pure and simple. What a bozo!

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Old 01-02-2022, 11:44 AM
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I was introduced to the 1911 and 1911A1 pistols in 1953 when I was in JROTC. I got to shoot them some back then and they worked just fine. I can completely take them apart with no tools whatsoever, and put them back together the same way.

I bought my first one in 1961, and have a stable of them now. All of them work just fine, thank you - and some date back to 1914.

My wife's stepfather carried one in Korea as his only armament when he was trapped behind enemy lines. Never heard him complain that his gun was unreliable.

I really don't choose to heed someone named Vickers. I much prefer accept an opinion from a guy named Cooper - I've been reading his common sense writings since the early 1960s; can't say that he's ever been wrong on much.

These are my "go to" carry pistols. They all work with anything I feed them, from lead semiwadcutters to hollow points to hardball. While any caliber from .22 on up can be lethal, if the chips were down and I had my druthers, I think the .45 ACP has proved itself time and time again.

Here's what I carry when I want to be double-damn sure of reliability and effectiveness.

John

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Old 01-02-2022, 12:04 PM
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A point that most ignore is the 1911 is a maintainance intensive platform for a Working / Duty gun . To keep a mess of them up & working is a chore . Many parts are considered consumables & need routine replacement for reliable duty . Not a concern for most of us , assuming one is willing to accept its requirements . Unfortunately most won't or can't , in that case striker-fired tuperware would be a better choice . FWIW it aint as offensive when they stamp a case / evidence # on a plastic wonder vs one of yer 1911's .
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Old 01-02-2022, 12:17 PM
Marshal tom Marshal tom is offline
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Larry Vickers and Ken Hackenthorn are known in the gun culture as two of the leading experts on the 1911 in particular and Larry Vickers is probably one of the leading experts on military and small arms. He has written several books, one of which is specifically on the 1911. He is an armorer and teaches classes, or did on building 1911 pistols, built and repaired pistols for the Marines etc. He carried and shot them in competition for years as well. To say that he doesn't know what he is talking about would be a stretch! That being said, I think he was making the point that 1911's require more maintenance than newer striker fired type weapons and that if you are not willing to do that, or want the simplicity of say a Glock, then go that direction. He has stated that a 1911 must be kept lubed, (run wet) in order for it to function properly. He has said that they will run dirty but they must be lubed.
I love 1911's. I have owned and carried many over the years and carried a 1911 by choice for probably 25 of my 36 years in LE. I still love them and always will. I have also never felt under gunned when carrying one in spite of the fact that I have several other, more modern, higher capacity choices.
I will also state that I have had very few malfunctions with any of my 1911's even with hollow points which I have carried for years in all of my 1911's I am not one who believed that to make one reliable, you must carry ball ammo only.
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Old 01-02-2022, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Univibe View Post
I carried a compact 1911 for a couple decades. Now it's a G19.

16>7.

That's obsolescence.

It's 2022.
I don't know about your life situation but I am extremely unlikely to require more than 7 rounds of ammo in any given self defense occasion...unless I'm at war and then Uncle Sugar will give me an M4 😁

I own plenty of higher capacity pistols including a G17 but capacity does not define obsolescence.
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Old 01-02-2022, 12:48 PM
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Maybe it is a strategy to dump on the 1911 to increase sales and start a series of debates, and it obviously works. Most of my experience with autos is with a BHP which I carried for over 40 years. There were times when I did use a 1911 and it was always 100% reliable. The 1911 has that reputation over many years and much usage. Were I young again and could not have my BHP the 1911 would be my top choice with 9mm first, then 45.
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Old 01-02-2022, 01:17 PM
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So does a muzzle-loader. Or a blunderbuss. Or a spear.
We are talking about Pistols specifically not weapons in general.
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Old 01-02-2022, 02:33 PM
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Folks, of course he's going to say that. Why? Simple. Because the Wilson Combat Vickers Elite 1911 goes for $3990. Why the heck do you think he would say you need to spend at least $3500 for a 1911? It's because he gets a kick back for every Vickers 1911 Wilson Combat sells.

So, it stands to reason that Larry is not going to endorse a purely functional and reliable Rock Island 1911 for $499 because he doesn't get any money from that.
Couldn't agree more, let the folks go with the high end 1911s or the striker fired polymers and THAT suits me just fine. Means there'll be more 1911 availability for yours truly. I enjoy my 1911s more than any other type handguns that I own. My RIA 1911 is a very solid shooter that I paid just over $400.00 for. It's a no-frills no BS handgun and will run every single type of .45ACP that I've put through it. I've not paid more than $1000.00 for any of my 1911s and you'll get no complaints from me as to their fit, finish and reliability.
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Old 01-02-2022, 02:42 PM
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Never heard of Larry Vickers. Don't know Him, don't care to. Been shooting and carrying 1911s since 75. Still carry a full size 1911. Each Their own when it comes to choice of weapons. As far as mentors are concerned, I'll stick with Col. Cooper.
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Old 01-02-2022, 02:44 PM
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Only my own $.02 here, of course…

IMO the 1911 is iconic for a reason. ‘Nuff said about that.
Personally, I’m a spice of life-type guy so I do have Glocks (I have a thing for buying .40 cal. Glocks, then 9mm conversion barrels for them. All have run perfectly that way, except I needed to get a 34’s recoil spring in order for the 35 to be reliable with the 9 conversion barrel.) Anyway, I get the genius behind the Glock’s design and appreciate it for that…BUT…I have li’l girly hands for a guy and enough crook in my trigger finger that unless I consciously put my finger higher on a Glock’s trigger, I’m gonna get a blister on the bottom of it after two or three boxes coz it rubs against the inside of the trigger guard. No complaint, just a Glock being a Glock and my finger being my finger.

That all said, I’m old enough to where I came up shooting 1911’s and revolvers. Transition from one to the other is a lot easier for me. I have 5 1911’s and I’ve carried them. Same with revolvers, same with Glocks. Pivotal moment for me regarding carry pieces was bodycam video that was shown to me by an instructor when I told him I’d been carrying a Smith J-frame and if I needed more than 5 rounds to solve the problem, I was screwed anyway coz I failed in my situational awareness. After seeing that vid, I started carrying my Glocks again or my P365 with 15-rnd. mags.

I still adore my 1911’s for what they are but honestly, when I’m in the mood to carry .45acp, it’s been my 10-shot Sig P227. If I was Clint Smith, it’d still be a 1911.
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Old 01-02-2022, 04:24 PM
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I carried a 1911 Kimber my last two or three years on the job when they quit supporting my 629. I found it reliable. I do find it too big for civilian EDC so it's been neglected since. I do carry my officers model RIA fairly often. It's never had a malfunction of any kind. I guess due to my years as a revolver carrier I don't feel unprotected with fewer rounds. However, I do always carry a spare mag regardless of capacity. Horror of horrors this past year I bought a Springfield Officers Model in .40s&W. I guess now I'm embarrassingly outdated.

Yeah, I think we were trolled with this thread.
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:18 PM
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I think Vickers has his bonafides but, he builds custom 1911s so he has an interest in custom($) jobs.
It’s also one mans opinion.
I think the way Browning designed the gun, loose enough to function pretty much no matter what, was perfect for what he designed it for. A combat accurate reliable pistol and not a bullseye pistol. It can be made that way if you want but I think the KISS theory applies well to it.
And that’s just my opinion.
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Old 01-02-2022, 07:11 PM
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Well, I just added one of these to my collection of 1911s.
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:54 PM
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Larry Vickers said the glock 21 is a dog and my experience leads me to believe otherwise.
Larry rolls with whatever is the current trend. 45 acp isn't the in Vogue cartridge for SD so 21 is out. Larry was a 1911 guy until polymer came about. He then promoted HK. When that wasn't lucrative enough he started advocating for Glock in his training program because that's what people wanted to use. He's versatile.

I admire the guy because he knows his 1911's and he's old school, but that won't pay the bills in the age of polymer and strikers.

He's a dinosaur but won't be soon forgotten because of his appreciation and knowledge of the 1911.
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Old 01-02-2022, 09:42 PM
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Just for the record, isn't the average number of shots fired in a confrontation three or four rounds?
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Old 01-02-2022, 10:10 PM
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Now you're saying, "Golly, Larry Vickers is ex-Delta Force and he's written some books therefore he must know what he's talking about, but I can't afford $3500, so Larry says I need to buy a Glock"

Guess what! There's also a Glock Vickers Elite package going for a mere $1490! Such a bargain. Whaddya want to bet good ol' Larry gets a kick back on that, too!
$1490 for a Glock?? That'll be the day...

But I won't pay $3900 for Vickers 1911 either. Rock River, Les Baer, and Clark all have custom 1911s for much much less than that, are Bullseye accurate, and 100% reliable.
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Old 01-03-2022, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rogerwnuss View Post
Just for the record, isn't the average number of shots fired in a confrontation three or four rounds?
Sure, so pack a j frame and you'll have ammo left over!


Seriously, as a longtime 1911 .45 carrier who switched to G17 / G19, here are the disadvantages (I will refer to Glocks but include all quality plastic guns):


1. Quality 1911s cost much more than equivalent plastic guns. To buy serious 1911 reliability you have to spend at least 2X the cost of a G19 and sometimes multiples.

2. 1911s are finicky on modern ammo, being designed around a standard military ball cartridge.

3. Modern 1911s are made tight for accuracy. They must be "broken in," run wet, and cleaned frequently whether fired or not.

4. Glocks come apart in seconds. Many modern 1911s require a barrel bushing wrench, recoil spring tool, etc for disassembly.

5. If a part is needed, hand fitting is required. Not so with plastic guns.

6. Capacity is limited. That means little to a lot of shooters, but it's why I switched to Glock.

7. 1911s sometimes are finicky about magazines, and frequently the ones that come OEM are poor. Plastic guns have good OEM mags.

8. Designs have improved. Whoever heard of tuning rhe extractor, contouring the feed ramp, or enlarging the ejection port on a Glock?

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Old 01-03-2022, 07:42 AM
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1911ís make good bear guns.
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Old 01-03-2022, 07:46 AM
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Glocks can fail too, as I previously stated. What each of us carry is a personal decision and really nobody else's business. The members here have a vast amount of experience too and we do what works for us. My SR1911 runs like a champ and has needed no work done to make it do that. It also has devoured any ammo I have fed it. Between my military and LE careers I have over 35 years of firearms experience and I haven't had a 1911 fail me yet. But a Glock has.
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Old 01-03-2022, 08:14 AM
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Not a big fan of the 1911, never got enough time with them to feel comfortable with one. Never even handled a Glock. I guess I am doomed from the start!

I do have an affinity for the 45 ACP cartridge. This is my edc.

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Old 01-03-2022, 08:30 AM
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1911s for the range are fine and dandy.

1911s for carry are obsolete. Too heavy and low capacity. Firearms innovation have far surpassed the 100 + year old design.
Guess you have never toted an Alloy frame version then.
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Old 01-03-2022, 08:31 AM
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All of my 1911s shoot lead boolits fine. NO warning against doing so either.
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Old 01-03-2022, 08:34 AM
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instead turn my thoughts to a more modern designed .45 ACP that holds twice the ammo while still being nimble and, most importantly, goes "bang" every time you pull the trigger.
I have multiple Para-ordnance double stack 1911s that have the same capacity as a Glock (actually I think they hold more) and mine always go bang and feed pretty much everything I have fed them. And the Para-ordnances have full supported barrels and never have issues with Glock bulges or cases blowing out.

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Old 01-03-2022, 09:38 AM
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Yes , the 1911 is an old design . I have a true story about " old design " . It was 1999 , I was riding my 1945 Harley Flathead 74 down main street in Roswell NM . I pulled up to a stop light , eased the hand shifter into neutral and sat back , waiting . A kid of a " rice rocket " pulls up along side and hollers over , " hey old timer , wanna race " ?
I told " sure " ! He said , " really " ? I told him my motorcyle was over 50 yrs old , for him to bring that piece of S#%^* that he was ridng back in 50 yrs and we would race . The light turned green and he took off , no further comments .
Come back with your " fantastic plastic " guns in 110 yrs and lets see how well they have held up or even lasted that long ? Regards Paul
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:15 AM
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I wonder how many of the malfunctions Mr. Vickers observes are due to the particular 1911 being made with incredibly tight clearances? I remember one particular USPSA match in which I participated where the weather was miserable. It was freezing and there was a little sleet and freezing rain that day. I saw several competitors with match grade 1911's having issues with their pistols jamming. They actually laughed at the 1911 I brought that day. Mine had these markings on it indicating that it had been in the service of the United States Army. It's finish was... it sort of had a finish. It also rattled when shaken. It also did not fail to feed, fire, and extract 100%. There was no laughing when I finished the match.
So maybe a lot of these 1911's that fail are ones that are built to match grade tolerances, then jam when there is no longer sufficient space for a build up of powder residue and grime.
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:18 AM
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As I've mentioned before, the majority of the polymer wonders that dominate today represent more a triumph of modern marketing than superior design. The angry Tupperware from Dr. Gaston and his progeny from other manufacturers are true wonders of modern manufacturing technique, turning out cheap yet serviceable and durable tools but they all take a back seat to other things that matter such as shootability- there are no modern designs out there that even approach JMB's century old designs in terms of shootability, so don't anyone even try to go there- ergonomics before anyone had coined the word and longevity. Having had "modern" trigger cocking and striker fired pieces foisted upon my by my agency over the past 21 years when I'm home and on my own I happily default to a 1911, revolvers in .357, 44 or 45, both thumb and trigger cocked, or my pre-B CZ-75. The majority of military and civil organizations default to administrative and logistic ease rather than actual effectiveness of tools provided to their personnel. Honestly, it would be better that everyone be compelled to provide their own firearms, demonstrate proficiency and receive whatever maintenance support from their parent organization is required rather than having a "one size fits all" solution jammed down their throats. Scores and results on the street and in the field would improve. The 1911 is simply and objectively easier to shoot fast and well and hit with. And hitting is the purpose of the whole thing. But sadly, too many people have lost site of that fact.
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:26 AM
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"Tired, Old, Unreliable Past It's Prime"...sounds like me...which is why I still carry mine...a 1911 daily since 1976...

I taught 3-5 tactical shooting classes a month from 1991/2 area to 2013...and still do monthly classes from May to November...I've seen them ALL fail at some point. And most is due to operator error not gun design.

As to having to spend $3500 for a "reliable" 1911, none of mine cost half that and I carry a 1911 daily as well as shoot them in IDPA. The only thing that has ever stopped one of them is a bad reload that would have stopped a Glock....The PREFECT GUN..not.

Bob

ps...just wait till all that polymer starts breaking down...all plastics eventually do. I've also been present when two students Glock Boomed with factory ammo. I've had one with factory ammo and one with reloads. Several friends have had Glock Booms some of them cracking the frames...

Last edited by SuperMan; 01-09-2022 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:48 AM
rosewood rosewood is offline
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1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime?  
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Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
I have a true story about " old design " . It was 1999 , I was riding my 1945 Harley Flathead 74 down main street in Roswell NM . I pulled up to a stop light , eased the hand shifter into neutral and sat back , waiting . A kid of a " rice rocket " pulls up along side and hollers over , " hey old timer , wanna race " ?
I told " sure " ! He said , " really " ? I told him my motorcyle was over 50 yrs old , for him to bring that piece of S#%^* that he was ridng back in 50 yrs and we would race . The light turned green and he took off , no further comments .
Not as old, but was stopped behind a car making a left hand turn, had a Mustang GT ahead of me (probably a mid 2000's model). He zipped around the card spooling it up and going through gears, and so did I on my 1982 Honda Gold Wing with full touring package. I proceeded to zip around the Mustang with the big ole touring bike. I am sure it hurt his feelings

Rosewood
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:30 AM
brucev brucev is offline
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1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime? 1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime?  
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I've owned plenty of 1911s, and most of them have been pretty darn reliable (and never in the $3,500 range). None of them have ever been quite Glock 19 reliable, but the most reliable of them (Dan Wesson Specialist, Dan Wesson A2, Springer MC Operator, and a RIA GI model) were certainly reliable enough that I'd not hesitate to carry any of them.

It is also true that the 1911 is large, heavy, and low capacity. There are higher capacity options, more accurate options, safer options, lighter options, smaller options, and all manner of other improvements available with other pistol designs made in the last 110 years.

Vickers had a career where those improvements we have now could have made a real difference to him and his friends, and he (mostly) speaks with that in mind. There have been attempts to breathe new martial life into the 1911, the best examples that come to mind being the MEUSOC program and its eventual offspring the M45, with an honorable mention to things like the FBI's HRT 1911 program that got us the Springfield Professional (still want one), but eventually those programs always go quietly away and the groups with the options wind up Glock 19s or similar.

Vickers is right that the Glock 19 (or honestly plenty of other similar pistols) beat out the 1911 platform for martial and other serious uses, and I'm sure there are people on this forum for whom that the differences between the two could matter. For most of us, it really doesn't, just as the difference between revolvers and autos will never matter to most of us. It's ok to carry or love whatever guns we want while recognizing that time marches on.
This! Bang on the dot! Currently own a Sig 226 and a RIA 1911. Both have been excellent in every way. Unfailing function, accuracy. Never found any brand of type of ammo that each would not shoot w/o problems. Have owned and enjoyed Glock 17L, 22, 21, 22. Same story. Excellent. Sincerely. bruce.
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