Yeah, pretty much.

__________________
Live long and prosper

Bah. Humbug.

Attached Images

IMG_0503 (2).jpg (45.7 KB, 49 views)

__________________
Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Just realized that Greyfox’s description of the 1911 as old, fat, and slow describes me exactly! This year marks sixty (60) years since I was drafted into the U S Army, and also 60 years since I bought my first 1911 from the DCM for $15.00 plus $2.50 shipping. I qualified expert with it (with the issued pistol, of course, not with my own gun) but couldn’t begin to do so now. The March of time crushes us all.

Last month or so, there were a couple of posts warning "If you carry a revolver, you're a dead man walking. Get a Glock" This month, we see the same dire warnings about the venerable, old 1911 platform. I get the impression some of our members like to drop a you-know-what in the punch bowl just to see who's triggered, (no pun intended).

I'm not in the triggered camp when it comes to selecting what is best for a given person. Although I guess I do get triggered by a post that preaches there is only one caliber or only one firearm that is acceptable for all. I'm not anti-Glock, I'm not anti-Sig, I'm not even anti-Taurus. I might be anti-Davis/Jennings/and similar poorly made and well known for malfunction type firearms.

A firearm, to me, is a tool and it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. If you want to rely upon the 1911 design, go for it! Just select the right one for the job. If the 1911 doesn't do it for you, find something that does.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

Just purchased another one yesterday. A friend is dying and selling of a bunch of his stuff. I purchased a 4" 19-4 in lovely condition, an FN BHP Austrian Police gun and a 1967 Government model that he has modified with Bomar sights and a fiber optic front sight. It is really nice but I have to put an ambi safety on it and do a couple of other changed to it to fit me.

It was a pretty obvious troll. The revolver post, too.

__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media

The 1911 is fine for carry. Get Wilson mags. Shoot 200 rounds of your carry load without a malfunction. Get a belt and holster that will handle the weight. Carry at least one extra magazine. Learn the checks you need to make for maintenance.

Gun Riters have to have something to write about, so they kick up controversy to get attention.

^^^^ This! ^^^^^

I've seen my fair share of 1911's come through our range and exhibit stoppages, in both LE and private citizen hands.

Some of the common factors shared are poor and/or poorly maintained magazines; less than optimal quality ammunition; guns which have been "improved" and "modified" by someone (shooter, outside smith, friend, etc); lack of good shooter maintenance; guns which left the factory with issues ... just to name some off the top of my head.

Having long been a 1911 owner and enthusiast, I remember the days in the 70's when a box-stock Colt might, or might not, reliably feed JHP's out-of-the-box, and when magazines had to be hand-selected to work with JHP's.

Now, as one of the 1911 armorers for my former agency, I saw my fair share of issues in NIB guns from a couple of the growing number of manufacturers of 1911's. Seemed as though those things might've been caught and corrected before they left the companies, but the same could be said of anything made by people.


In 2005, after I took my Colt pistol armorer class, I ordered a couple of new 1911's, a Colt XSE stainless Government and a S&W SW1911SC (stainless slide, SC aluminum frame and 5" barrel). Using a couple brands of magazines I'd come to trust, I ran an assortment of various 230gr JHP duty loads we'd used over time through both guns. Aside from the irritating instance of one side of the ambi thumb safety assembly snapping off and falling to the ground on the Colt the first range day - which was replaced with a single side safety - both 1911's fed, fired and ejected all the JHP's I tried.

I scoped the tolerances and fit of the hammers/sears in both 1911's, just out of curiosity, and found both to have been assembled and fitted quite well. Nicely done for standard guns right out of their boxes (except for that stupid ambi safety assembly, which the Colt tech told me, when I called, was an aftermarket part they used on their XSE's at the time ).

That continued for several years, until one day one end of the plunger tube loosened on the SW1911SC. I didn't feel like fiddling with replacing it myself, because of the aluminum frame, so I let the factory replace it.

Now, several more years later, both of those 1911's are still perking right along and functioning with the same assortment of JHP's. Reliably. Since I've retired from my regualr career, and from serving as an instructor, I don't do as much shooting with them as I did when I was shooting throughout each month, but the guns still serve my needs well. I don't carry the big 5" guns as often as my smaller compact and subcompact models, preferring less weight on my hips, but those 5" 1911's have long proven their reliability, for me, in my hands.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

One thing I omitted mentioning was that a 1911 does typically require a bit more owner/user maintenance knowledge than other handguns. At least regarding keeping springs fresh and knowing the right amount of lube to run for conditions.

Also, since magazines are at the very heart of reliable feeding and functioning, magazines are not where someone ought to cut corners.

Ditto using a good quality holster and keeping an eye on its condition.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I'm 76 years old and I still carry a 1911 every day. A 1911 kept me alive in in 1968 and never fail me.

I have a 20 year old Springfield Armory 1911 GI in Stainless Steel. I've fed it thousands of rounds from handloads to factory rejects and it's never failed to feed or jammed. Maybe it's a "good one" but it's 100% reliable!

Probably the most accurate assessment yet.

__________________
Common sense isn't so common.

I attended Glock armorers school twice over the years and worked on quite a few. But I’ve never owned one. They are good honest tools but I’m just not a fan. And I don’t make firearms decisions based on what Larry Vickers or any other personality says, just another opinion among thousands. I’ll just keep carrying my very reliable 30 year old Kimber CDP in .45ACP a while longer.

John Browning's 110 year old design, and people are still trying to come up with something markedly better. That says something, so does the fact they are using the same cartridge.
I like my 645, I think it is every bit as good as a 1911.

__________________
Kind regards, Heinz

I'm a fan...the 1911 just fits my hands well and I shoot it better than most other autos for that reason. I have a long history with them...carried an Army issue one for the better part of one of my tours in Vietnam in 1970...accurate, not really...reliable...well I bet my life on it nightly in slit trenches and sand-bagged defensive positions...and that big 230 grain slug was comforting when barreling down a commo trench to the mortor pit.

I still love the gun...have them in .22, .38 Super, 9mm, .40 S&W, & .45...they're all good....the best for carry is a Sig RCS in .45 acp; officer's grip, an alloy frame checkered fore and aft on the grip surfaces, Novak night sights, match barrel; you get the idea...it's a superb carry/fighting pistol that's 100% reliable without the 'mall ninja' pistol games **** so often hyped in the shooting magazines.

I've owned a baker's dozen from Remington-Rand, Colt, Ruger & Sig...go ahead & pick one, & be happy...you'll be carrying history in your hand and can trust its long and honorable record of dependability. Best Regards, Rod (Pic of Sig RCS below)

__________________
Vote the bums out!

Well, they accomplish one worthwhile thing anyway - they spawn multi-page discussions!

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Story about a Glock 45 an an RIA 45. Friend at work considers himself an action shootist. When the local outdoor range is empty, he'll set up several targets and do a l-r, r-l run'n'gun exercise with his Glock, a mdl 21 45 ACP. We decided to go shooting together one afternoon last year. We set up several SD distance silouhette targets at 7 yards. He had one box of 230 gr 45 hardball. I brought two boxes each of Federal 230 HS, CCI Aluminum 230 hardball, and one box of Speer 230gr G2 JHP+P. He loaded up his glock, and shot, standing, a rough fist-sized group at 7 yards with his hardball. I loaded one mag each of the three I had for my RIA Standard. All cut into the same fist-sized hole in the next target. Surprised, he asked to try my ammo. I said "sure" and loaded one mag of each load. He had one FTC with the CCI Aluminum, two with the Federal HS, and none with the Speer GS, but his comment was "that kicked hard." The hits varied up and down the target. He asked to try my RIA. I mixed up all three loads in one 8-round mag for my RIA, and handed it to him. The were nearly all one-hole at seven yards. He didn't even notice the G2 rounds in the stack.

Don't think anything is learned from this limited experience, but I do know he sold the Glock mdl 21 45 and bought a CZ Browning clone.

I have 2 45 ACP's - my RIA, and a Ruger American. They both shoot all my 45's in stock, every time I pull the trigger.

__________________
Heavily armed old man.

Best answer to the Glock vs 1911 debate is to have at least one of each.

I have several 1911s and one Glock. The glock never leaves the safe.

That's exactly right.

I like mine. I don't carry it but I like shooting it. But I reload so I can afford to.

It's a discussion forum. What I've learned in the discussion is that it's no wonder our country is so divided when folks get worked up over little stuff, and it's all little stuff.

__________________
Live long and prosper

Generally when you get worked up over little stuff, that is because there isn't any big stuff to get worked up over. That may be a good thing.

I may get tired if I reach 111 years old.

__________________
Sure you did

The weight comes in handy for wacking someone up side the head
None of my 1911's have never let me down. Kimber (Yonkers), Colt 70 Series, nor my SA 1911 Loaded. Used them all in IDPA.
I do use Breakthrough Clean Battle Born Lubricants in all my firearms thou .

Yep, if you are out of ammo and still in the fight, a steel frame 1911 makes a decent hammer.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

Pistol whipping wasn't developed using plastic frame guns...

I am not a Glock fan, but I am not here to knock them. I have owned two gold cups and a SR1911, and not a malfunction out of any of them. The game changer for me was hand loading the Nosler 185's for the SR1911 at 25 yards. And although I shoot at 7 yards with my CC Ruger Max 9, I find it boring to shoot targets at that close of a range. I also shoot a Sig P320 X5 Legion so I am accustomed to heaver pistols as well as my Model 29 collection. I guess I am lucky I do not live in an area that I have to CC carry everyday.

Nor is it necessary with hi cap pistols. Ole' JMB was smarter than we give him credit for by designing the 1911 to be a club as backup with so few rounds available in the magazine.

__________________
Live long and prosper

Old JMB was from Utah and he counted on shooters being able to shoot. If you miss the first 7 times, you are unlikely to hit in the next 7.

__________________
Kind regards, Heinz

When he designed the 1911, he was competing with 6 round revolvers that were likely loaded only with 5.

Rosewood

I supposed JMB was the first to encourage spray and pray then with that 40% increase in magazine capacity.

__________________
Live long and prosper

Depends on how you look at it
In the example above with one empty chamber in the revolver going from 5 to 8 is 3 more rounds and 3/5 = 60% increase
Or if you assume a full load of 6 the revolver it is 2 extra rounds and like you said that is a 40% increase.
HOWEVER if you look at the 1911 as having 8 +1 then those increases are 4/5 = 80% or 3/6 = 50%
Any way you look at it the increase is significant.
Math is fun.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

This I am going to get out one I'd the 1911s and fondle it while watching news this evening.

I have three 1911 style Colt 45's. One cost me $125.00 the other two were given to me by the widow of a friend. One is a Colt Officers Model the other is made up of high-quality parts on a Colt frame and slide. It was his target gun, and he won many a match with it. My $125.00 gun is what I carried in Vietnam, and I have shot a coke bottle cap with it at a measured 85 yards. I don't have a Glock and as I have said elsewhere if I wanted to carry a brick, I'd go to a brick yard and buy one. While I do have some hicap 9mm pistols, if I need more than 7rds, I also need to know why I am in that location.

I'm down to two 1911's ,a 1972 70 Series and an Argentine . Both I have owned for a lot of years and both are as reliable as any automatic I have ever handled. The Argentine was made in the mid 50's and has had the hound shot out of it , it never jams . I have seen any number of expensive custom built 1911's that do . They are set up too tight , something that's good for target shooting but not so much for a SD pistol. I'll take an average Government model in worn condition as a carry piece over a Glock any day of the week .

Don't know this Larry that you reference but my thoughts on that is , just one mans opinion. You know what they say about opinions ? This is the 70 Series that I carry. If you want 100% reliability buy you a nice Colt SAA in .45 or .44 Special , they don't jam either.

Attached Images

IMAG0117.jpg (106.4 KB, 18 views)

__________________
Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I do have a 1911 that holds 11 rds. with 1 in the chamber. Its a Sig 1911 in .22 caliber. Ran across it in gun safe. Forgot I had it.

I love the 1911 platform and have had zero issues with mine (5). I carry the full size and commander occasionally (winter). As far as Vickers goes his opinion is his opinion but he does attach his name to a 1911 made by Springfield Armory. A .45acp with 2 (8 round) magazines called the Vickers Tactical.

__________________
Is that a gun No a lifesaver

I actually have shot the HK45 and it suffers many of the same ergonomic issues all plastic pistols suffer. It is also priced accordingly in HK's Teutonic fashion and thus built itself out of competition. One must remember that in today's military real shooters have very little input in the selection process. Professional administrators and project managers crunch numbers to find the cheapest tool to meet whatever specifications are dreamt up. In the case of the M9, its primary requirement was that a soldier be able to load and unload the piece with the safety engaged. Nothing else.

Yes. The HK45 is reliable. So is any properly built 1911. For all the talk about "x" number of malfunctions in "x" thousands of rounds fired...I would just love for anyone to show me one single documented instance of anyone actually having fired that many rounds without cleaning, lube, etc. while deployed. It took me the better part of two years to get just over 10k rounds through one G19 and it would experience the occasional feedway stoppage and came close to losing the front sight on more than one occasion til I Loc-Tited the thing. Having been forced to carry and shoot the SIG and Glock platforms over the past 20 plus years, I have not been impressed enough to replace my 1911, pre-B CZ-75 or any of my revolvers with them for personal defense. I have found them all easier to hit with and more quickly than the traditional trigger cocking self loaders or the striker fired pieces.

The Moonshot 1911. A pistol encrusted with pieces of the moon. - YouTube

I took a look and I'm not feeling the whole moon thing.

Attached Images

Moonshot 1911.jpg (60.7 KB, 100 views)

__________________
Live long and prosper

Well, the name sounded familiar - but I had to use Gurgle to get the scoop.

He does seem hold himself in high regard.

As for me, I was never in the military, however I did work as a government contractor for several decades. The Department of Energy Nuclear Materials Couriers and Special Response Teams I was associated with generally made any other group of tacticool guys seem to be Girl Scouts.

Oh, yes, The only 1911 nearby has been a reliable tool of mine for about 40 years. It, and others like, it were (and still are) very popular with the folks I hung out with.

I know who Larry Vickers is, but don't consider his word as gospel.

His thinking on the 1911 led a YouTuber to do a 1000 round torture test on a Kimber 1911 (5"). So I watched the video of he, with the help of two others, firing 1000 consecutive problem free rounds through that Kimber.

Personally, once I got wilson combat magazines and a kimber ultra carry II recoil spring in my 1911, I have had no issues - regardless to ammo type.
So put me in the camp that says Vickers is entitled to his opinion...and nothing more.

__________________
Stay protected my friends.

And the Staccato is one of the higher end $2K ones Larry talked about. I agree with him, there are a lot better choices for self defense than a 1911. My high end ones (Les Baer and Dan Wesson) have been fine, I had a RIA and two new Colts that weren't/aren't reliable. Both Colts took two trips back to the factory, one still isn't right and I would never trust it for self defense.

But I don't think Glock reliability is all it's cracked up to be either.

1911 is heavy, absorbs recoil better, and is less likely to jam from a limp wrist like shooting from a weak position, or when you are wounded.

The single stack frame and grips are a comfortable, excellent fit in the hand. The gun is well balanced, which is something every plastic fantastic lacks. It is a natural, well balanced combat weapon, easy to work with.

If left alone, it is perfectly reliable. Most problems seem to come from kids putting different parts in it, tightening them up, and generally doing things to turn them into target pistols, or just morons who like ruining guns because they can't leave anything they own alone. Cheap magazines and Tim the Toolman has caused most reliability problems with the 1911. Not any inherent flaw.

The endless stories of "the unjammable Glock" have always been proven wrong. You can watch professionals who know what they are doing have failures in videos. Worst of all, you can watch plenty of actual police incidents and shootings where the supposedly reliable gun fails, time after time. Shooting around people with Glocks, you see they have more failures then I do with my cheapo GI 1911. All that tough talk, and propaganda of being tougher and more reliable never seemed to ever match reality.

So, I will use a weapon that is natural to me, works well when shot weak, absorbs recoil easily, and has a beautiful combat trigger with traditional exposed hammer, and has proven itself as reliable as any auto loader to me.

Exchanging my steel weapon for a plastic "shooting platform" makes no sense. At least for me.

Sadly many, if not most have not owned or shot older Colt 1911 types. I will not buy or own a newer one, period. Those making statements on unreliability of Colt 1911’s need to state age of pistol they are referring to. Unless one has owned, carried and shot 1000 s of rounds through an older Colt 1911 they dont know what they missed.