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  #51  
Old 01-12-2022, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
According to what I have read here, you should lay down 9mm FMJ suppressive fire while battling your way to crew-served weaponry.
Yes, but it has to be unmodified, nonupgraded, crew served weaponry.
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  #52  
Old 01-12-2022, 02:11 PM
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Don't forget, the police will take away your SD gun forever, too.

So many myths...
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  #53  
Old 01-12-2022, 02:30 PM
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Don't forget, the police will take away your SD gun forever, too.

So many myths...
Not in my City or my County. They will give it back, Quickly.
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  #54  
Old 01-12-2022, 02:38 PM
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Wow, with 3 rounds things would be straight…..
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Old 01-12-2022, 02:39 PM
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The biggest gun joke I’ve herd is “ Practical” hooked onto any type of gun games. The first thing that happens is modifying, which is no longer practical. The parade of “experts” on YouTube of which most I wouldn’t trust with a BB gun.
Carry guns for SD with Target triggers, Target sights and optics. Not to mention the approved combat load of ammo. Don’t forget the back up piece and your EDC Knives.
I’m not up on court cases that may hinge on handloads and modified guns.
My advice is just get practice at SD ranges and don’t worry about bling.
95% of the experts never been shot at, so who made them experts.
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  #56  
Old 01-12-2022, 04:32 PM
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[QUOTE=Drm50;141358671
95% of the experts never been shot at, so who made them experts.[/QUOTE]

"They" did. Larry
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  #57  
Old 01-12-2022, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by squidsix View Post
He says that. Its oft quoted.
Show me case law. Show me a case where an otherwise clean shoot resulted in a conviction of the shooter because of mods to his gun.
I will wait.


All my guns are custom. All of them.
Cool. Maybe you'll be the test case that proves someone with Ayoob's experience and education wrong.

How many of these cases have you testified in again?

Last edited by luvsmiths; 01-12-2022 at 05:26 PM.
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  #58  
Old 01-12-2022, 06:06 PM
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Around here, if they needed to drag that stuff up in hopes of a guilty verdict it would be a non starter. What gun or ammo you used won't matter much. Did the guy do something that he deserved a shooting for or not? For one thing most of the jury will know all about guns, ammunition.
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Old 01-12-2022, 06:09 PM
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We were required to get written approval for an off-duty/back up firearm and part of that was the range officer had to inspect it & verify our qualification score. That meant no trigger jobs so I learned to shoot my personal weapon the way it came from the factory. Besides, I could barely afford a personal weapon let alone having it slicked up by a gunsmith.
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  #60  
Old 01-12-2022, 06:32 PM
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If you buy a quality handgun you don't need to mess with the trigger. If it's that crappy from the factory I'd consider a different make/model.

The only thing I "modified" are barrel, sights, magazine base and grip stippling. It has worked through thousands of rounds and got me through police academy w/o a single hiccup (unless we did failure drills).
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  #61  
Old 01-12-2022, 06:37 PM
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I like and shoot S&W revolvers, I also carry S&W 642 revolvers. The mainsprings vary a whole lot on S&W guns, leaf or coil. I have installed a lighter spring in a 642 to bring it down to normal trigger pull weight.
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  #62  
Old 01-12-2022, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvsmiths View Post
Cool. Maybe you'll be the test case that proves someone with Ayoob's experience and education wrong.

How many of these cases have you testified in again?
The question is about what appellate courts decide and the precedent they establish. I would be interested in the citation of any such case in any US state or the Federal criminal or civil appellate court wherein minor modification, not including (of course) modifying semi- to fully-automatic, or use of handloads was a decisive issue.

I worked with a guy for two decades who was never near a shooting and who retired from our full-time, salaried state police department as a captain. He declared himself a firearms expert based on his instructor certificates and 'experience;' he testified as an expert in New Mexico courts for a few years. His peers certainly did not consult him on firearms or their use once he retired, as his experience was in training, not shootings or even critical incident responses to shootings/armed, barricaded suspect incidents.

Last edited by biku324; 01-12-2022 at 11:17 PM.
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  #63  
Old 01-12-2022, 07:18 PM
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So how are these shyster Lawyers going to know your firearm was modified ?
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  #64  
Old 01-12-2022, 08:11 PM
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As far as appellate court goes. Who of us has the money to pay the attorneys. These cases should never have to go past the county courts.
We all know that these days a jury would not convict you for self defense shooting. I also wonder why the detectives even try to pin anything on you.
We are told not to talk or answer any of there questions because they are trying to trap you, see if you are remorseful etc. Whose side are they on????
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  #65  
Old 01-12-2022, 10:41 PM
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If you are convicted in a criminal court, you have a right to appeal. If you are too broke by then to afford to pay an attorney (which is extremely likely), the court will appoint one for you.

The job of investigators is to investigate. If they find probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, their obligation is to find out who committed the crime - the more serious the crime, the more investigative time and effort it gets. Killings, whether justified, excusable, manslaughter, or murder get the very most. When they are done, off goes the investigation to the prosecutor for a decision on prosecution or perhaps further investigation.

If you believe a jury won't convict in SD cases you could talk to Travis McMichael, Gregory McMichael, and their neighbor William "Roddie" Bryan.

Last edited by biku324; 01-12-2022 at 10:57 PM.
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  #66  
Old 01-12-2022, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Borderboss View Post
If you don't intend to take the shot, your finger shouldn't be on the trigger. That's where this "YouTube expert" is all wrong. It's nonsense that staging a trigger is somehow a safety device. It's just a lousy trigger that could just as easily contribute to a negligent discharge because of this "staging the trigger" thing.
This here!

Finger goes to trigger at the moment the decision to shoot has been made. And not before.
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  #67  
Old 01-12-2022, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
If you are convicted in a criminal court, you have a right to appeal. If you are too broke by then to afford to pay an attorney (which is extremely likely), the court will appoint one for you.

The job of investigators is to investigate. If they find probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, their obligation is to find out who committed the crime - the more serious the crime, the more investigative time and effort it gets. Killings, whether justified, excusable, manslaughter, or murder get the very most. When they are done, off goes the investigation to the prosecutor for a decision on prosecution or perhaps further investigation.

If you believe a jury won't convict in SD cases you could talk to Travis McMichael, Gregory McMichael, and their neighbor William "Roddie" Bryan.
There were more than a few things wrong with their actions that day. I don't think that's exactly a great example.
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  #68  
Old 01-13-2022, 12:04 AM
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Well, the first prosecutor bought self-defense; that discretionary decision didn't stick, did it. There is either 20 years to no statutory time limitations on prosecuting for murder, depending on the state.

It is much cheaper and better not to kill people unless you just have no other choice at all if you want to live. And if you are truly, believably in that circumstance, your firearm and ammo are peripheral issues so long as you legally possess them.

Last edited by biku324; 01-13-2022 at 12:10 AM.
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  #69  
Old 01-13-2022, 09:42 AM
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“Victims” lawyer to Plaintive : “So, you changed out the grips on you gun….. and you also, changed the grip screws……… you did that because you wanted this gun to be more deadly, didn’t you?”

Interesting discussion today…….
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Old 01-13-2022, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonrunner View Post
I know in some states like Colorado, you are responsible for where the bullet goes after you fire it. So lets say you miss your intended target and wound an innocent bystandered, not sure if you will face criminal charges for a trigger that is "match grade" but in a civil suit for putting the bystander in a wheel chair, the hair trigger could come into play and it would be up to the jury to decide if you were negligent.

I was all set to upgrade my newly purchased Walther PDP to an Overwatch Precision, my MP 2.0 Compact, and my MP 2.0 pro series 5" but now after watching the youtube video above I think I will keep them stock
I think that if you are willing to let a single Youtuber dissuade you from doing anything to anything, you weren't too sold on doing the "thing" in the first place!!!
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  #71  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:20 AM
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It seems to me that those of us with the skill set to shoot a out of the box Glock are good to go.
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  #72  
Old 01-13-2022, 11:10 AM
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The only modifications I've made to my carry guns are the sights and the striker plates.

Trigger mods seem highly unnecessary to me because as long as the stock trigger will actually cause the firearm to discharge when I need it to, then it will serve its purpose. I don't care about how smooth, short, crisp, or sweet the trigger pull is, nor do I suspect that it would make any real difference in a self-defense situation. I'll leave that stuff to the folks who enjoy the pursuit of the illusive ideal carry gun and spend my time/money on training/ammunition to become proficient with what I have.

As for the concept of a customized/modified firearm being a potential liability in court. I wouldn't sweat it, because realistically any prosecutor who is going to nitpick minor details regarding otherwise innocuous modifications must be seriously hurting for any concrete incriminating evidence, and thus has no case.
So yeah, just don't do anything stupid like put an overtly threatening logo/phrase on your carry gun, and I think you'll do fine.
I've got some custom striker plates on my carry guns, but they're inscribed with a Bible verse, and not one which alludes to battle either, so if a prosecutor wants to try to turn that on me then they can have at it, fail miserably, then see what happens to the reputation of a dishonest man who attempts to twist the word of God to condemn an innocent man.
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  #73  
Old 01-13-2022, 12:17 PM
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If all YouTube videos were required to be relevant and accurate the content would be reduced to 5% of current content.
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  #74  
Old 01-13-2022, 12:35 PM
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My carry gun has the hammer spur removed. Why is that? So it don't hang up on clothing and as I never shoot it single action, it is not necessary. The lock is also removed. I never lock it and neither do the vast majority of those who own guns with a lock. If I want to secure it I put it in a gun safe. Besides anyone can get a key that fits as they are all the same, plus anyone with a screwdriver can remove side plate hammer and remove lock entirely. I would make sure my defense attorney brought those points before the jury if the prosecutor brought them up.

If they convict me based on those modifications to my gun, I was toast anyway.

Last edited by steelslaver; 01-13-2022 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 01-13-2022, 02:10 PM
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This entire thread is beyond silly. When a shooting is truly in self defense where does all the nonsense about prosecutors, attorneys and lawsuits come from?
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  #76  
Old 01-13-2022, 02:17 PM
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Back when I was walking through Southeast Asia I do not recall running across anyone who modified their EDC especially triggers, except for putting a selector switch on our M-14's to make it fully automatic vs semi- automatic.
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Old 01-13-2022, 02:18 PM
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I've yet to find a new handgun that didn't work well straight out-of-the box. As for the used ones I've picked up over many years, I believe most, maybe all were unmodified, except perhaps the stocks and I would replace stocks with the correct ones.

Many shooters may not take the time to become accustomed to what they have in basic form by doing a considerable amount of shooting before "upgrading" and modifying. They often believe these alleged improvements will take the place of shooting skill. They don't.

Some improvements may truly be worthwhile, but usually only the very experienced handgunner can take advantage of such modifications. It might be best to develop good shooting skills first before making a decision to change anything. You may decide there's really no reason to do so.

There's some good stuff on YouTube, but much of it isn't.
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Old 01-13-2022, 02:25 PM
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Everybody should know that any modification including grips and performance sights to a gun used in a SD situation is fodder for the DA's office which will automatically be used against you. However LE can have the same modifications to their service weapon without raising an eyebrow. Massad Ayoob has been preaching this since the late 1970's.
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Old 01-13-2022, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laketime View Post
Everybody should know that any modification including grips and performance sights to a gun used in a SD situation is fodder for the DA's office which will automatically be used against you. However LE can have the same modifications to their service weapon without raising an eyebrow. Massad Ayoob has been preaching this since the late 1970's.
And it's been speculative for that whole time. Please provide a specific case decision that proves otherwise.
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Old 01-13-2022, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
This entire thread is beyond silly. When a shooting is truly in self defense where does all the nonsense about prosecutors, attorneys and lawsuits come from?
Uh, you've heard of the Kyle Rittenhouse case, right? A guy doing absolutely nothing illegal, violently attacked by three people, shooting them in self defense, and being charged with murder. That's where this kind of discussion comes from.
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Old 01-13-2022, 03:21 PM
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You have heard the Kyle Rittenhouse walked on every charge right???

While he may have walked, some would argue (me for one) he did not use the best judgement by failing to avoid such confrontations. But for this thread the thing to consider is that any modifications to his weapon had zip to do with him being charged and NOTHING to do with the outcome. A blimp on the radar. His age was of far more concern.

A modification on your gun is NOT going to be the deciding factor on whether or not a prosecutor charges you. Once charged you had best get an attorney. The amount such modifications may or may not add to the cost of your defense is a small percentage of the whole if it goes to that point.

Last edited by steelslaver; 01-13-2022 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 01-13-2022, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
You have heard the Kyle Rittenhouse walked on every charge right???

A modification on your gun is NOT going to be the deciding factor on whether or not a prosecutor charges you.
If he had a quote engraved that they could tie to some supposed racist or other ist group they would have went after that. Political trials for SD has been happening a lot, even when no one is shot. Only trust a lawyer you pay for and only then as much as you have to.
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Old 01-13-2022, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by meangreenlx50 View Post
If he had a quote engraved that they could tie to some supposed racist or other ist group they would have went after that. Political trials for SD has been happening a lot, even when no one is shot. Only trust a lawyer you pay for and only then as much as you have to.
They may well have brought that up at trial yes. But, a stupid quote on your gun is a lot different than say a modified hammer spur. In fact if the quote would have been on his hat, a shirt or even if he had made it on an internet forum it would have had the same effect as far as prosecution goes.

I will agree that political motivation happens. But that happens with and without any modifications Always has and always will. Show me something that has not got politicized in this country. A parent yelling at a ref or school board member has gotten political

Last edited by steelslaver; 01-13-2022 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 01-13-2022, 03:58 PM
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Based on my experience in the criminal justice arena, if you are involved in a shooting no matter how justified you will be in for a world of heartbreak, stress and economic calamity which will totally disrupt your life. And that is if you win. The last thing needed is ANYTHING that can complicate matters. For that reason I will NOT carry anything but a stock unmodified firearm with stock factory ammo. I will NOT carry "Zombie Killers" or "Black Talons" or anything like that. I'll go further. I carry only ball ammo in my semi autos and heavy weight (148 or 158grn ) SJSP or SJHP in my revolvers.
I'll not go into reasons why-just trust me on this one.
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by marathonrunner View Post
I think whoever is going around saying this is fear mongering.I do not recall one case where the DA charged someone because they modified the trigger. If it is a clean shoot it is a clean shoot
T'ain't the DA you need to worry about. 'Tis the jury!
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:03 PM
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Can someone send me a link to a case where the shooter was convicted based solely on the fact that he had a legally modified weapon? I'm having a hard time finding one.

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Old 01-13-2022, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Laketime View Post
Everybody should know that any modification including grips and performance sights to a gun used in a SD situation is fodder for the DA's office which will automatically be used against you. However LE can have the same modifications to their service weapon without raising an eyebrow. Massad Ayoob has been preaching this since the late 1970's.
News to me… because my agency does not let us modify our duty weapons.

I wanted to put extended slide release on my issued Glock 19 MOS… nope!
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
Around here, if they needed to drag that stuff up in hopes of a guilty verdict it would be a non starter. What gun or ammo you used won't matter much. Did the guy do something that he deserved a shooting for or not? For one thing most of the jury will know all about guns, ammunition.
Absolutely correct but it is just one more thing one has to worry about and deal with in an otherwise off the charts stress filled situation. Trust me on THAT observation-I can tell you it is stressful enough for the defense lawyer!! I hope I never have to experience it as the client.
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
News to me… because my agency does not let us modify our duty weapons.

I wanted to put extended slide release on my issued Glock 19 MOS… nope!
It was the same here. However, I could use my personal M&P for duty, and everything was fine, despite my "modifications"
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
If you are convicted in a criminal court, you have a right to appeal. If you are too broke by then to afford to pay an attorney (which is extremely likely), the court will appoint one for you.

The job of investigators is to investigate. If they find probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, their obligation is to find out who committed the crime - the more serious the crime, the more investigative time and effort it gets. Killings, whether justified, excusable, manslaughter, or murder get the very most. When they are done, off goes the investigation to the prosecutor for a decision on prosecution or perhaps further investigation.

If you believe a jury won't convict in SD cases you could talk to Travis McMichael, Gregory McMichael, and their neighbor William "Roddie" Bryan.
From time to time I’ve had reason to question your opinions and your judgment about a few things.

This latest statement above clearly pushed your credibility over the edge. Permanently.

Those three pieces of …. we’re guilty as sin, and the heinous crime they committed was in no way shape or form a legitimate self defense shoot.

You should be embarrassed to have even suggested it.
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:33 PM
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As watched the video and wasn’t very impressed. That changed to totally unimpressed when he did that stupid “draw and present” thing while taking the “pre-travel” out of the trigger on his Glock.

Later he comments that light triggers are bad because under stress you can blow right through that pre travel and pull the trigger.

True enough I suppose, but then that’s why you just don’t stage or put you finger on any trigger until the handgun is on target and you’ve made the decision to shoot.
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Old 01-13-2022, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
From time to time I’ve had reason to question your opinions and your judgment about a few things.

This latest statement above clearly pushed your credibility over the edge. Permanently.

Those three pieces of …. we’re guilty as sin, and the heinous crime they committed was in no way shape or form a legitimate self defense shoot.

You should be embarrassed to have even suggested it.
And the only reason we've heard of them is because when rational adults saw the evidence, the original DA was quickly, rightfully overruled. Those gentlemen indeed committed murder.
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Old 01-13-2022, 05:38 PM
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Those three pieces of …. we’re guilty as sin, and the heinous crime they committed was in no way shape or form a legitimate self defense shoot.

You should be embarrassed to have even suggested it.
I didn’t see where he suggested it was a legitimate self defense shoot.
What he said was that it was a self defense case, which it was.
Before you jump someone for something they never said, re-read the post.
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Old 01-13-2022, 05:45 PM
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As with so many things, one weighs the risks, which includes considering information and it's source.

So....

Random guy on internet.

Vs.

Nationally recognized expert who has:

...authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues... has written self-defense and firearms related articles... has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV...

...has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor... a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position. His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."
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Old 01-13-2022, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
I didn’t see where he suggested it was a legitimate self defense shoot.
What he said was that it was a self defense case, which it was.
Before you jump someone for something they never said, re-read the post.
It is implied.
The discussion is about cases of legitimate self defense, and whether modified guns increase the probability of being convicted of a crime in a case of legitimate self defense.
Invoking those three as examples of being convicted while claiming self defense in the context of this discussion implies that their claim was legitimate.
It wasn't and using them as an example in this context is indeed ridiculous.
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Old 01-13-2022, 06:13 PM
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Well, whatever. I’ll put my keyboard down now.
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Old 01-13-2022, 06:24 PM
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Why are all of these imaginary defendants being questioned by the Prosecutor ? Let your Attorney answer the questions .
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
It is implied.
The discussion is about cases of legitimate self defense, and whether modified guns increase the probability of being convicted of a crime in a case of legitimate self defense.
Invoking those three as examples of being convicted while claiming self defense in the context of this discussion implies that their claim was legitimate.
It wasn't and using them as an example in this context is indeed ridiculous.
Nonsense. Read what I said, not what you somehow inferred.
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09 View Post
As with so many things, one weighs the risks, which includes considering information and it's source.

So....

Random guy on internet.

Vs.

Nationally recognized expert who has:

...authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues... has written self-defense and firearms related articles... has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV...

...has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor... a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position. His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."
Exactly right.

That doesn't resolve the absence of caselaw on the matter, and few events are litigated more than are shootings.
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Based on my experience in the criminal justice arena, if you are involved in a shooting no matter how justified you will be in for a world of heartbreak, stress and economic calamity which will totally disrupt your life. And that is if you win. The last thing needed is ANYTHING that can complicate matters. For that reason I will NOT carry anything but a stock unmodified firearm with stock factory ammo. I will NOT carry "Zombie Killers" or "Black Talons" or anything like that. I'll go further. I carry only ball ammo in my semi autos and heavy weight (148 or 158grn ) SJSP or SJHP in my revolvers.
I'll not go into reasons why-just trust me on this one.
Words that are more true will not be written.
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