Guys, I don't know how any of you feel about the youtube video below, but this youtuber just saved me a ton of money as I was intending to upgrade four of my carry guns triggers to Overwatch Precision Triggers. They are great triggers but expensive.

For starters my Walther PDP stock trigger is very good out of the box but was contemplating getting a flatty for it. My MP 2.0 Compact stock hinged is fine as is stock, but was also looking to get a fatty. But now I realize this youtuber is absolutely correct in that for a self defense gun that is a carry gun, you do want pre travel and a fair amount of it. My one Walther PPQ has an apex trigger and there is hardly no pretravel but as fast and fun as that is, I can only imagine under stress I could have unintended discharges when nervous. THis youtuber saved me a lot of money kudos to him.

A Good Reason You SHOULD NOT Upgrade Your Gun's Trigger - YouTube

You upgrade a trigger for a competition pistol. And this presumes you have the competition competency to go with it. CAS. IPSC. IDPA. 3GUN. Fast Draw. Whatever GAME you want to play.

You upgrade a trigger on an EDC gun ONLY if the trigger is so bad that you cannot reasonably press the trigger in an emergency and hit a target. An EDC gun is NOT for playing games.

See? Wasn't that easy?

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Come and take it!!

The youtuber states that a tuned trigger is a crutch. I disagree.

My first carry was a revolver with a #14 DA. No amount of practice could possibly have improved my skill with that firearm. My targets at can't miss distance looked like shotgun patterns and my hand hurt after 15-20 rounds.

When the trigger was tuned to a manageable #9 I was able to shoot it well enough to carry with confidence and practice without pain.

A crutch? I don't think so.

Carry guns need custom expensive replacement triggers to be useful for self defense? Yet another silly thread 🤪

Perhaps for youngsters, experienced long time marksman would all depend on personal preference.

That video comes from the "Warrior Poet Society," yet another firearms "expert" that I've never heard of, so I can't say if he's right or wrong. In my not-so-humble, guy that's been shooting for 40+ years' opinion, do your homework before believing any of these self-proclaimed "expert" opinions.

My walter PPQ with an apex flat trigger has taken all of the pretravel out so there is no way to prep trigger while pressing out. Now add stress I can only imagine you could dischrage pistol before meaning to. My Walther PDP is stock and has a lot of pre travel, but does allow for prepping trigger

Maybe some one on the video should have mentioned the legal problems it may cause in a SD situation

I never thought of that. Can you site some cases please?

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never get out of the boat

If you don't intend to take the shot, your finger shouldn't be on the trigger. That's where this "YouTube expert" is all wrong. It's nonsense that staging a trigger is somehow a safety device. It's just a lousy trigger that could just as easily contribute to a negligent discharge because of this "staging the trigger" thing.

Massad Ayoob has some thoughts on that.

After doing some homework, his name is John Lovell, former Army Ranger who served 4 tours in Middle East. He is approx, 40 years old and has done dozens of videos on firearms. He makes a living teaching various firearm classes. While I am not recommending anyone live or die on his opinions. I for one am willing to listen to him and then make my own decisions.

I didn't watch the video but my 2 cents is that you lose motor control during stress. Can someone tell the difference between a tweaked and stock trigger with adrenaline pumping? Probably not. NYC did those silly 12 lb Glock triggers to prevent AD's or ND's but the fact of the matter is that most people under stress will easily produce 25 lbs of trigger force. If your finger is on the trigger and you get surprised or even trip over something in the night the gun is probably going off.

shooting at the range is much different than having to shoot (to save your life/or family) under stress .. be smart..

Getting advice from YouTube is something you should never do.

"Armed attorneys" speak on modifying your carry gun:

The NYPD has ditched the 12# triggers starting this year. I believed they sighted training difficulties and accuracy problems overall due to said trigger.

The Rittenhouse Trial proved that they will question everything. They knocked him for FMJ and not hollow points (although Binger tried to set up a HP lie). If you change sights and trigger to be more effective they could come at that, red dot on a pistol, why did you shoot to kill since you are so accurate. Court and lawyers will attack all.

I think whoever is going around saying this is fear mongering.I do not recall one case where the DA charged someone because they modified the trigger. If it is a clean shoot it is a clean shoot

That may be true but Rittonhouse was a dumb for going out there to begin with. When you set out to be a vigilante **** like this can happen.

If you are walking down a street minding your own business and robbers try to rob you and you shoot them dead, I don't think the DA would find a agrand jury to indict you regardless of mods

.........just another mouth spouting HIS opinion.......

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S&W Accumulator

If you are walking down the street minding your own business and someone THREATENS YOUR LIFE...

"Why were you carrying a gun? Were you looking for a fight?"

The "dont put x mod or carry y ammo because lawyers" argument is older than the internet and lacks any evidence any of these things have ever led to a conviction. If Kyle had been carrying Hollow Points they'd have gone after that too. They're lawyers, its what they do.

"Why did you change sights and put a more effective sight on your gun?"

To better control my shooting and increase my hit probability since I'm responsible for every stray round. See what I did there?

"hair triggers" at 5:30

Read an article by Ayoob 20-25 years ago basically saying don't modify a carry gun. Lawyers will eat you alive.

He says that. Its oft quoted.
Show me case law. Show me a case where an otherwise clean shoot resulted in a conviction of the shooter because of mods to his gun.
I will wait.


All my guns are custom. All of them.

Folks we gotta stop this.... I'm eating too much popcorn.

He is a retired Army SFC.


I believe he was a Ranger or Special Forces.

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Chris S.
Fort Lauderdale, FL

The idea that you can't carry a gun with any modifications is asinine. It's just fudd rhetoric.

Current events: My carry gun is a Glock 26, stock except for Novak sights. I consider it ideal. My wife carries the same pistol, stock except for a laser sight. She feels the same way, and shoots this pistol extremely well.

Past events: During the revolver era (where my heart still dwells) gunsmiths offered either a duty tune or match action job. The duty tune smoothed up everything, without affecting the force of the hammer fall. The idea was to enhance the shooter's ability to accurately place the shots without hearing 'click' rather than 'bang' when in the jungle.

Once we went to mandatory carry department owned guns, rather than personally owned, that stopped. By that time I was so used to shooting DA only that I don't think it made any difference to me. To this day, I always shoot a DA revolver DA.

The competition action job did everything possible to make the action as smooth and light as possible. This not only included smoothing all the action parts, but also using lighter hammer and trigger return springs.

In my customized S&W 586 I have these lighter springs.

In my PPC Rugers I also have lighter trigger return springs. Years ago Jim Clark came out with an adjustable mainspring assembly using a new strut that was cylindrical and threaded with a nut to adjust tension. This gave an infinitely variable mainspring which could be tuned to the wadcutter loads a shooter was using.

These match action jobs were specifically contraindicated for duty or defensive use because ignition reliability was right on the ragged edge with actions this light. They sure are nice though.

To respond to several other posts:

I know the prosecution threw everything possible at Rittenhouse, in the hope that something/anything would stick.

In the Arbery case defense counsel tried to make an issue of the victim's dirty toenails.

In each instance the verdicts showed the juries were too smart for such red herrings on the part of counsel. In each instance we can debate whether such efforts were or were not ethical since they were digressions from the narrow facts at issue.

I submit that in each case, such efforts, besides being unsuccessful, probably did nothing good for respect for the legal profession.

Conviction? Who said anything about conviction......
It's the lawsuit afterward, by the family of the sainted criminal and pushed by the ambulance chaser that you have to watch out for. Ayoobs article was both amusing and full of practical advice.

I have a Springfield XD-S that I would not even consider using for EDC until I modified it, and replaced the terrible trigger it shipped with.

True, the lawsuit is a big part, but let's remember just because there is no conviction does not mean that the issue wasn't raised by a hack prosecutor and runs the accused through the proverbial ringer.

It also need to be mentioned that firearms, especially guns that are intended for EDC, are heavily tested before they are released on the market, at least S&W does that. Modifying the trigger mechanism with aftermarket parts or altering the original parts could affect the safety or the reliability of the firearm.
I know that Apex flat faced forward set sear and trigger kit for M&P will fail a drop test since S&W hav tested it.

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Hello darknes my old friend

I know in some states like Colorado, you are responsible for where the bullet goes after you fire it. So lets say you miss your intended target and wound an innocent bystandered, not sure if you will face criminal charges for a trigger that is "match grade" but in a civil suit for putting the bystander in a wheel chair, the hair trigger could come into play and it would be up to the jury to decide if you were negligent.

I was all set to upgrade my newly purchased Walther PDP to an Overwatch Precision, my MP 2.0 Compact, and my MP 2.0 pro series 5" but now after watching the youtube video above I think I will keep them stock

What if, What if, What if for ever. You need help bud 😱

YouTube, I have learned a lot there. But.
Lesson no. 1. Don't believe much of what you see there. Verify everything. That applies to forums as well.

Not trying to hijack, but there are all kinds of opinions on modified carry and duty guns, and yes sometimes it gives me a moments thought. We have one guy on the dept who always pulls me aside and tells me to throw a couple shots and stop maxing my score because some day if I shoot some kid down the street the lawyers will say you always shot a perfect score in quals, why did you miss now and kill an innocent civilian? Everyone has an opinion.

I use a stock firearm for carry. If you do not like a stock trigger, try a different gun.

No I can't but there is always a first. Look what happened to Bernie Goetz actually defending himself against 3 muggers with weapons. Victim's attorneys and lefty DA's can com up with anything. I won't give them that chance-SD gun should remain stock-in my opinion.

Thoughts are fine, but cases decided by appellate courts actually matter. Any lawyer can argue anything, and they do. Same-same on the nonsense about handloads for SD.

Let me save you some time...

Added: My old agency allowed duty carry of any sidearm of approved calibers if the armorer inspected and approved it. My High Power was modified by removing the magazine safety; the armorer explicitly approved it with that modification. The process was 1) request, 2) armorer inspection and approval, 3) Legal Office approval, and 4) Chief's Office approval. All signed off on my request.

There's a lot of horse manure that floats on a sea of SD gamesmen's speculations, IME.

With regards to Apex failing the drop test does not surprise me. When looking at their machining, it is nowhere near as good as greyguns flat triggers which are more exact and more refined. The apex failing the drop test if true, that is definitely cause for concern.

The only modification to my J Frames is a grip change, or a Tyler’s T Grip, to accommodate my XLG hands. IMHO reduced trigger weight could be a problem in court I’d rather avoid.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

all these words and yet not one single example is posted, criminal or civil....

There's a lot of "firsts" out there that could be dangerous to your health and well being. If you're that afraid of them I have some bad news for you...

You just said a mouthful...


Of truth.

Old Bernie was acquitted of the counts relating to the shooting of the four muggers. He was only convicted of one count of illegal possession of a loaded firearm. He was sentenced to six months, which was appealed and he was resentenced to a year. He actually served 8 months.

He was successfully sued for 43 million bucks by one of the shootees, but says he hasn’t paid a dime of it.

He said he never fired the J frame Smith, reported variously as a Model 37 or Model 38, until that day on the subway. He was surprised at how loud it was. It was completely unmodified as he had purchased it brand new in Florida after a previous mugging.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

'Ole Bernie never really escaped that shooting. He can make no real money, as he owes $43 million plus interest, and courts will take his assets above whatever the state limit might be. He literally got away with attempted murder, however, so he should be grateful.

After wounding three of the men, Goetz pointed his gun at 18-year-old Darrell Cabey, who was not wounded but cowering terrified in the subway car, and said, “You don’t look too bad, here’s another.” Goetz then shot Cabey in the back, severing his spinal cord. Three of the youths recovered, but Cabey was paralyzed and suffered permanent brain damage.

I somehow doubt a cop would get away with that.

As he has the right to do. You have the right not to listen.

Hummmmm, so you have been to the range with your target pistols, on the way home you are accosted by 3 undesirables wanting your cash and car. Do you give them everything or put them down with your match1911??????

According to what I have read here, you should lay down 9mm FMJ suppressive fire while battling your way to crew-served weaponry.