using a 357 magnum as home defense, but of course those are too hot. So I have bought, of course hoping I never need them, is Hornady Home defense loads in .38 + p with the plastic bead in a hollow point. But lately I have been target shooting some .38 wadcutters, and I wonder if they would be a good home defense option. They are accurate, they are a fairly heavy chunk of lead traveling at relatively slow speed, so they would probably not over penetrate. And the kicker, is they are relatively quiet compared to my other .38 rounds, meaning you (might) not blow your own ears off if you did have to fire in the middle of the night...i mean who wears ear protection to bed lol. Any thoughts from the more experienced?

Good question. As a corollary, you often hear of people touting .357 loads out of <2" J-Frame. Does anyone plan to do that in a normal sized bedroom w/o hearing protection?

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You're shy a few manners.

Honestly, anything is loud in an enclosed space and the "Eeeeeeeeee Street Band" will be in your head. I've had the pleasure of firing a number of guns in enclosed spaces and let me tell you, even a .22LR is loud.

Wadcutters are not the best self-defense load out there. But anything is better than harsh words.

If you're worried about tinnitus, the only thing I can tell you is if you truly might have to use your gun in a self-defense situation. You might experience auditory exclusion. That's when during a fight or flight event, your brain literally shuts down your hearing due to high stress. You also develop tunnel vision and time seems to slow down too.

I always suggest to use the best tool for the job for self-defense. Right now, I have my S&W Model 586 and Colt MKIV Series 80 as my two go to guns. Both are with full power loads.



The S&W has Winchester's Super-X .357 Magnum 125gr JHP and the Colt has Winchester's Ranger SXT .45 ACP 230gr JHP.

In the end, use what you feel comfortable with. .38 S&W Special +P is a good self-defense load, so if you're comfy with it. Stick with it.

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

I have found the Speer 135gr 38 spl +P load to be very accurate in most of my revolvers.
Mod 60 1 7/8”. 853 FPS
Mod 13-3 3”. 937 FPS
Mod 686 2 1/2”. 877 FPS
Also my carry round.
Lots of other good choices out there though if they are in stock.
Take Care.

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Fide Et Amore

The old chestnut about how loud/firebally .357 is indoors dates back to when most available or commonly used .357 was hot 125 or 158 grainers.

That's changed and there's a lot of different flavors to address the old issues.

The Hornady you've got in .38 Special is good, too.

Wadcutters (and by that I presume you mean 148gr match ammo as that's what most people mean when they say "wadcutter" even though that's just a term for a particular kind of bullet, not round), are very good for defensive use; in short barrels, possibly ideal.

Here's a recent thread on the topic: Wad cutters for Self Defense

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Pickpocket

Any .38/.357 load indoors will have hearing-damaging levels of noise.

Personally I would avoid 130 gr FMJ and 158 gr RNL .38, and at the other end full-house 125 gr (or any other hot) .357. Just about any other load that you can shoot accurately and quickly on target will likely suffice.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The preferred load should be factor where you live...tract house, woods, apartment, etc, as you will own the results of your rounds exiting the walls of your place regardless of circumstances.
With that said, my nightstand .38 is loaded with the old FBI load, +P 158 gr semi-wad cutter, my wife's with 148 gr match wadcutters, which she shoots best.
We are adequately armed with either.

All claims regarding ammo decibel levels experienced should be prefaced by which firearm they are fired from.
My 24" .38/.357 lever rifle will shoot full-power .357 more quietly than anything I've shot from my handguns.
That's one factor which makes it my HD choice.

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

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Slava Ukraini!

I’m married and wear hearing protection soon as I walk in the door and to bed so loud rounds are not a problem for me.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

If you don't live in the "country" then you want to avoid wall penetration to the extent possible, which is not easy. Any quality .38 Special round will suffice for home defense and that's all I use in my M686 bedside gun, never magnum loads. There is no magic bullet; shoot what works for you and, hopefully, doesn't reach your neighbor's home.

In your own home remember wall penetration is an issue if you have kids or anyone sleeping in other rooms.

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Come and take it!!

I don't think wadcutters are good for defense. Perhaps use some 38 special JHP round that's from a large popular manufacturer.

I don't know the ammo availability situation at present. Ideally, however, consider getting four or five .38 Special ammos, standard pressure, +P or a mixture with 158 grain bullets, jacketed soft point, jacketed HP, lead HP, or what have you. Shoot up close and at distance, 25 yards. What works best for you in terms of accuracy, point of impact vs. point of aim, and quick recovery is your best choice in ammo.

Don't get bogged down with the myriad complications of the gunfighting syndrome. You'll never find an answer if you allow that to happen. Good luck-

Agree that wadcutters can be a potent self-defense option. Chris at Lucky Gunner does a nice job of objectively covering the wadcutter option for personal defense in shorter barreled .38 Specials particularly. You can find the vid out there on the interweb. Maybe not the best choice for carry but worth considering for "home defense."

I know this topic has been covered, plenty, in other places and at other times on this forum, but I once played around with 148 grain HBWC seated "backwards" through one of my Model 10s. Accuracy was iffy past 20 feet or so and the barrel leading was a real chore to remove after only a couple dozen rounds. Nevertheless they did expand nicely; something that is challenging for lots of HP bullets at typical .38 Special velocities.

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Ordnung muss sein
SWHF #789

Wadcutter ammo would certainly be more effective than a round nose bullet, but these days, there are two top notch 38 Special defense rounds available. First, Speer's 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Special +P Short Barrel load. This a proven round with the NYPD. Second option would be Federal's 130 grain HST Micro 38 Special +P. This uses a 130 grain jacketed wadcutter that is seated backwards. This concept is based on a very old practice of seating 148 grain hollow base wadcutters backwards. It worked then, it will work even better now with a modern design bullet.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

If you put the bullet into the target properly the wadcutter is plenty.

Winchester RA38B works for me out of a .357 or a .38 J frame.

130 gr +P

Everything is loud indoors. Might as well pick a round that will get the job done.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

We loaded 148 gr. .38 Spl. wadcutters to about 850 fps for PPC way back when. They could be seen against a light background before hitting a 50 yard target, but if they hit a solid object like a target frame or post, they really flattened out, because of the hollow base. I imagine they would make a good low-penetration man stopper, I know I wouldn't want to get shot with one at 50 yards, definitely not at 5 or less.

And they will still be LOUD inside a small room, but at least being subsonic, wouldn't have the supersonic crack a magnum round would have. That's one of the assumed acceptable hazards of defending yourself inside a house with a gun....loss of hearing. I don't suppose anyone would expect the intruder to wait until you put your muffs on.

plenty of food for thought there, but still a toss up. Pretty much everything except ****** reloads shoot very well in my pistol, which is a (gulp) ruger gp100 with a 4.2" barrel. I also sometimes have my model 18 loaded with segmented quiets in the ol nightstand. I guess I am worried about my ears but they are ringin already and I don't want them any worse..

You're probably only going to get off one shot in a dark bedroom. After that, you won't be able to see anything for about 5 minutes.
Might as well let it be a 12 ga.
IMHO as always,
J.

I saw a question here, almost exactly like yours many years ago. The old hands talking about hearing loss and blindness from the flash got my attention. I now have a suppressor mounted, coupled with subsonic ammunition. While still loud in an enclosed space, it's hearing safe and I didn't notice any flash: The Truth About Silencers: Secrets most gun owners don't know - YouTube

Whole lotta things in one Opening Post here .


In the Universe of Ammunition , between various Medium , Tactical , " Lite" , etc .357 and hot and extra hot .38 Spl , they overlap in the middle .

What are qualities sought in Defensive Ammo generally , or additionally for Home Defensive ? :

Be reasonably effective in stopping Bad Guys .

Be reasonably controllable by the shooter , especially under stressful conditions .

Don't be massively overpenetrative inside dwelling places .

Don't be massively excessive in noise/ muzzle blast .


Starting with the second item first - Yes it is good idea to test various * catagories * of ammo , in your gun , to judge how well you can shoot/ contol them in your gun . i.e. standard pressure .38 vs .38 +P of different bullet weight vs reduced .357 .

You ( hypothetical anyone ) could be neophyte , middling , or very experienced shooter . You could be basically healthy & fit , or various combinations of physical handicaps .

A 4 inch GP-100 is a substantial gun , heavy enough to soak up good bit of recoil ( high school Physics 101 ) . As a broad simplification , said GP-100 with .38 +P will kick less than majority of duty guns & loads from the Revolver Era . But figure out that Parameter for yourself .

There actually are handgun rounds that are stopped within a single common interior wall . ( Yes , I speak from first hand .) But they are very specialized, very exotic ,very expensive , and have major trade offs , and are usually recommend against , unless you have very unique environment.

Any vaguely conventional firearm load will go thru at least one wall , they differences are a matter of degree . i.e. be worried about adjacent room vs 5 sucuessive rooms , plus exterior wall , plus neighbors.

( Essentially) Any centerfire handgun indoors is Loud . There are degrees of loud , and people could have actual medical issues with their ears .

Some guns are stupid loud - Under 3 inch .44Magnum inside a vehicle , .45-70 Contender with muzzle break , 10.5 inch bbl 5.56 , will all shake your body with the physical blast wave , and downright hurt w/o ear protection . Mainstream defensive handgun ammo is within a certain band of variation .

( I almost hesitate to mention , I have personal experience in shooting two examples pretty much at either end of typical , inside a small horse barn , kinda equivalent to large rooms in a house . A 9mm +P+ , and std pressure .45 Colt . Neither was debilitating , but after once decided 9mm +P+ was no fun w/o protection , and .45 Colt went on to account for numerous Trophy Sized Rats .)

Wadcutters ! Most Wadcutter Legands arrive from sucuessive generations of shooters rediscovering stories from ( usually LEO ) from back in Golden Age .

Specifically , back when for vast majority of non- handloaders , there were EXACTLY Two different types of .38 Spl ammunition - 158gr RNL , and 148gr midrange Wadcutters . Numerous shooters independently discovered -* Hey these Wadcutters are more pleasant to shoot than 158 RNL , and these Wadcutters seem to be at least as effective on Bad Guys or Game as 158 RNL .*

But being at least as good as 158gr RNL is a pretty low bar , exceeded by most modern defensive ammo . And if recoil is paramount , there are other .38 rounds that kick less .

******************

After all that pontificating , some bottom line for people in OP's circumstance -

Unless your domestic circumstances are very unique , or you have substantial physical and medical issues - Your starting point in large 4 inch revolver should be .38 +P , in whichever of 6 or 10 best regarded Defense / Duty ammo . Take care to be aware of locations of your family members , try not to miss the BG . If you are really , really concerned about noise or absolute minimum wall penetration , are you concerned enough to get a different gun instead ?

well, as to a different gun...probly not. I shoot the ruger pretty well, and many home defense loads are available. not a huge collector guy, I have a s&w model 18 and the ruger, and thats probably what I'll have for good, being 68..today actually is my b'day..so any bad guys that may want to break in, assuming they get past my dogo argentine, will have to wonder what they may get shot with..

Happy Birthday! I didn't recognize the Dogo Argentino breed and looked it up, very nice looking and probably fearsome to any intruder.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

When and IF the time comes, you won't hear the report of the round going off the same way you do at the range.

thanks for the b'day wishes Alan, yes the Dogo is a good breed. Like many good dogs, very friendly but knows when to growl. And the bite is about 200lb per sq in. harder than a pit bulls- you do not want her on you I can guarantee it

Keep your home defense gun loaded with what you shoot most accurately and can do a fast follow up shot if needed .

Hits from a 38 target load w/ HBWC beat shooting holes in the sheetrocked walls and ceiling seven ways to Sunday .

The flat wadcutter nose cuts a full caliber hole , target load allows accuracy and fast follow up shot(s) .

Only hits count in self-defense ... misses injure innocents .

All that said ... my 38 specials , all are loaded with Wadcutter Loads .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I am leaning a bit towards the wadcutters, have only had them to the range a couple of times, but they are very accurate, not as loud as most, and make a pretty good hole..If I have the chance to test wadcutters and plus p loads side by side for penetration, that would probably make my decision..I would want the one with lesser penetration out of those 2, if anybody knows..

I think that you are fine with a any standard / generally accepted .38 or .38+P load. Speer Gold Dot, or the like in 125-158 gr. No need to use anything weird.

I fired off a .38 Spl from a snub, 125 gr. Federal Nyclad, in a walk-in closet one time. The previous post about "Eeeeeeee Street Band" is right on the money. It was sort of disorienting and both ears going "eeeeeeeeeeee" for hours. Felt it in my left ear for days. All good now.

When 16 years old on the back gravel road with my brother, I slamed on the brakes and turned off the motor.
On my side , up on a levie was a ground squirl, sitting up looking at us.

I got my 6" Ruger loaded with a rimfire .22 Magnum and let have it.

I remenber that shot to this day, being a metal inclosed Jeep with just my window rolled down !!

I am just very glad that I have not shot a large centerfire round in my house, as yet
and hope that I never will.

I once had to fire a 357 magnum in 4" barrel inside a home. My ears hurt for hours. I told that on another forum once then had to read a flaming response by one of their high post experts about how he'd fired everything up to 50 bmg with no hearing protection and it never damaged his ears. Evidently I was just a wimp.

I used 44 special for house gun for years later, but recently have been using a 158 grain jhp 38 special load for a home gun. I figure it's enough to do the job and the hearing I save could be my own

Once while hunting , I fired a 2.75in .44 Mag with Blue Dot handload , in an open field w/o ear protection . My ears rang for hours .

I have shot the +p speer golddots hollow point, and agree that they shoot very well and accurate. The hollow point is hollow..the Hornady +p shoots well also, and has the plastic bead in it. I was told ( by a range fly ha ha) that a shot from a speer will get you in trouble with the law, where the plastic bead in the Hornady makes it "legal" Anyone else hear this? of course, still no problem out of a wadcutter, legally anyhow..I'm in Jersey, btw.

Your being in New Jersey makes all the difference on this question; most places it's a non-issue. Because of NJ's unusual (to put it nicely) laws regarding ammunition usage and firearm ownership, strongly suggest you avail yourself to concrete sources on the laws in your state and locality, rather than forum chat.

A good CCW or armed self-defense course in your community should offer this coursework; a NJ-based attorney specializing in in the subject could walk you through, too.

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Pickpocket

You ain't gonna get much more expansion out of a 38 JHP than a wadcutter to make any difference. But if it makes you feel good then go for it. Tell me, why don't you feel wadcutters are good for defense?

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Forum consigliere

My thoughts exactly ... over penetration is not wanted and shooting inside a room is hard on the hearing .
I can tell you ... you don't hear the shots then ... they sound distant and muffled but later your hearing can wind up being damaged ... there is a LOT to be said for the 38 Target HBWC and having to fire inside a room .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I'm not so sure about your average swaged lead hollow base wadcutter, but I'm more positive about one of the cast, solid, wadcutters loaded up around 800 fps.

These ones are Fiocchi 148 gr LWC 800FPS out of a 6" barrel? mines only a 4.2 but it probably does not lose too much

You've never been in a "him or me" situation. Noise and collateral damage will be the very last thing on your mind. Excellent to plan ahead but there is never a one size fits all. I carry a 357 for coyotes, skunks, racoons, possums, dogs and whatever else thinks livestock means free lunch. Thirty minutes from help from the Sheriff even if I had time to touch the iPhone screen to dial. Can't talk about specs on ammo because I don't know, don't care, never bothered to learn. All I want is for whatever is out in front of me to stop moving when I pull the trigger. The S&W 357 satisfies my every need. Don't stop talking about specs on bullets, muzzle velocity, type of guns, etc. I carry a 357 because all of you discuss all the specs, such as barrel length, muzzle velocity and kinetic energy when the bullet impacts. But keep in mind the one reason one carries.

A few comments about noise and .357 Magnum self defense loads:

1) The decibel scale isn’t linear. The report of a .38 Special will be about 156 dB while the report of a .357 Magnum will be about 164 dB. On the face of it it would seem that the .357 magnum is only about 5 percent louder. But that’s not the case.

On the decibel scale the intensity of the sound energy doubles every 3 dB. With an 8 decibel difference, the .357 Magnum is about 2 and a half times louder than a .38 Special. That’s a huge difference, and it’s even more significant in a confined space.

2) Younger ears are generally more tolerant of experiencing loud gunshot noises without permanent damage than older ears. The effects are often also cumulative.

3) If you do have to fire a handgun or rifle indoors, it’s a very good idea to see an ENT within 24 hours. The doctor will probably prescribe steroids and have you wear ear plugs 24/7 for a couple weeks to limit the damage and promote as much recovery as possible.

4) Most modern .357 Magnum ammo is loaded with slow burning (by pistol standards) colloidal ball powders as they are inexpensive, easy to produce and will produce higher maximum velocities in 4 to 6 inch barrels. However, those slow burning powder charges weigh about twice as much as faster burning powders and produce about 40% more recoil.

In a short 2 1/2” or 3” barrel the difference in velocity is minimal - on the order of about 25-50 fps, but still with about 40% more recoil.

5) A .38+P load works well in a short barrel revolver to gain the velocity otherwise lost in a short barrel. It helps give a short barrel .38 Special the velocity and terminal performance comparable to a 4” .38 Special.

6) Again in a short barrel, a low recoil .357 Magnum load using a faster burning powder will still be about 150 fps more velocity than a .38 +P load. That can be important when a hollow point design may need that extra velocity to ensure reliable expansion.

Well, as they say horses for courses. If I were shooting coyotes I would certainly load .357's in it. If it may have to go off inside and there are other options, a 357 is not good around here. it might also go thru 3 houses.

I have a Marlin 357 Magnum lever gun with an 18.5" barrel.

I was wondering what ammo to use in it.

A while back I bought several boxes of 38 special 125gr Gold Dot. It's standard pressure, non plus P.

I didn't even know Speer made a 38 standard pressure Gold Dot.

It was on the law enforcement site.

There are a few tests on the web, and that round doesn't expand when shot from a snub.

But I figured it might be a good choice for HD in my Marlin carbine.

yeah, the whole not enough velocity to expand the bullet properly kind of makes me lean toward the wadcutters even more. No body has mentioned a downside that would overcome all the advantages, to my mind. Course, right now the s&w is doing a stint in the nightstand, I don't want to give it an inferiority complex

No, you'll get at least two with the 2nd being more accurate. With the flash of the first shot you'll see everything including your sights and be able to adjust your aim for the second shot. As long as you keep up rapid fire you'll have a good idea where you're shooting. Obviously not as good as shooting in an illuminated room or with a weapon light.

I live out in the country so I don't particularly worry about over penetration impacting my not so close neighbors. There was a short period of time when I lived in town in a duplex while we were building our home and in that situation what I had on standby was a 20 gauge 870 with a short imp cyl barrel loaded with #3 buckshot.

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Live long and prosper

The subject of HBWCs loaded backwards has come up before. Here is
something I posted 4 years ago. At the time Atomic Ammo was making
148-Gr. HBWC loaded backwards to create a hollow point. There was a
video on line that showed tests of the load. There were some pros and
lots of cons.

I conducted my own test. I shot some into a target with my 642 from a
distance of 3 feet. The target was 3/4" plywood with a 4" x 4" patch
consisting of a layer of leather, a layer of denim, and two layers of cotton.
In back of that was 12" of compressed sponge rubber (cut from an old
mattress). Then another 3/4" plywood back.

The shot went clean through the whole thing and kicked up dirt about
40' down range. The exit wound was a nasty looking jagged hole about
an inch in diameter.

Not a real scientific test I know, but it did tell me something about the
load.

Attached Images

SAM_2105.jpg (65.0 KB, 14 views)

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In Omnia Paratus

Hey Phil- your test sounds like a Paul Harrell Meat - Orange- Clothing Target.
When my Buddy Carl discharged that Luger into the floor right near his and my feet, it was loud!
Between Guns, Airplanes and Rock and Roll, I’m amazed I can hear anything. High Freq is impaired.
Inside the house, I am prepared with regular 38 Specials in 38s and 357s.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

My "bedside" snub nose revolver has been stoked for years with good old .38sp. 158gr. LRN.

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John

The VA has provided me with nice hearing aids to compensate for a few very loud noises originating in too close a proximity to my person. A lot of it from gunfire. Some was inside buildings, so while I don't consider myself an expert, I disagree with some of the "it won't harm your hearing at all" statements I have heard over the years. I have a suppressor and load 147gr subsonic 9mm in my home defense gun. I have put enough through the gun to know it is reliable. Expensive and an annoyance to jump through the hoops to buy? Yes. Worth it to me? Yes. Especially sitting here listening to the gawd awful ringing in my ears.

And the idea that it hurt for a little while and/or my ears rang for a day or two, but it is all ok now? Yeah, I used to think that at one time too.

THE PILGRIM - I had never heard of Paul Herrell,so I looked him up on
Google. Very interesting tests.

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In Omnia Paratus

Buffalo Bore sells a low flash, low blast (noise and recoil) .357 round designed for short barreled, lightweight revolvers.

"Low" being relative, of course.