NY just passed a law that will require 2 hours of live fire with 18 hours of classes for pistol permit renewals. I am interested in what other states have been doing for their testing.

Thanks in advance.

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Fide Et Amore

In Iowa, anyone with a clean police record can get a concealed permit that is good only in Iowa. We can also go to the sheriff's office and apply for a permit that is good in several other States, but costs $25 and renewable every 5 years. An applicant with veteran status does not have to attend a gun safety class (cost $50) or shoot their firearm. A citizen who is not a veteran has to do both.

In my state, 8 hours classroom training. For live fire, 20 rounds on a standard B-27 silhouette target that have to be fully or partly hitting it at 7 yards.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Here in PA, you stop by the County Sheriff's Office, have a cup of coffee and chew the fat with the Sheriff while the nice deputy runs your background, and prints up a new copy of your permit. I think it's $25.00, and good for 5 years.

I keep my state pistol permit up, even though I carry under LEOSA, which is actually more stringent than a civilian getting a permit in that you have to renew and qualify yearly on the same course of fire local LEO uses.

Larry

Here in Texas, live fire is 50 rounds at from 3 to 15 yards on a larger than life size silhouette. As long as you don't shoot the instructor, you are good to go.

LEOSA is the only way to go after 30 years on the job. I enjoy the annual training which (at my old department) includes a catered lunch and all the war stories you can stomach!

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S&W factory revolver armorer

You're pretty much right.

The course of fire:
Texas DPS CHL Range Qualification Requirements

Note you can miss all the 15 yard rounds and still pass. Shockingly few people shoot a perfect score.

I shot my last one with a Taurus .380 just to try and make it sporting. It wasn't.

Attached Images

IMG_2036.JPG (35.3 KB, 464 views)

We don't have a "Pistol Permit" in SC.
Conceal Carry Permit is 8 hours classroom and 50 rounds on range.

Permit renewals are free.

Conceal Permit holder has SC Open Carry privilege.





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Slava Ukraini!

Missouri requires that you do not shoot the instructor. Otherwise, you just have to make your pistol go bang . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It’s 16 hr class and live fire range requirements for new applicants only. NOT renewals. There was previously no range requirements and a much shorter class. NY is doing what it has always done. Make the process long and complicated so people don’t bother. Several law suits have already been filed by individuals and firearms groups.

Montana has NO classroom or live fire requirements....no wonder I
have lived here for most of my 66 years!!

Randy

8 hour class with a live fire segment. Live fire test is at 3, 5, and 7 yards; 6, 12, and 12 rounds respectively. Shooter must score 70% on a B27/21 target.
Interesting to note how many other students were either new gun owners or at least new to the types of subcompacts they tested with. Many people struggled and some failed.

Nothing required by the state to get a permit if you want one. Your county's sheriff can ask for anything up to an NRA handgun safety course which doesn't take but a few rounds at close range. But, as long as you don't have anything to prevent you from purchasing a gun you don't need a permit here anymore to carry concealed.

My sheriff was fine with me having been in military. I took the NRA course just because. I keep my permit for out of state travel and here with a permit you don't have to wait on a call, just show your permit and fill out the 4473, pay your money and leave with your gun.

What’s funny to me is 43 out of 50 states (86%) has shall issue permit procedures. They are not the 43 states ranked highest in shootings. Places like NY , California and Chicago, are the law makers really that dumb or is it simply about power and control? It’s clear every time they speak about any firearm they have no idea what they’re talking about. In NY most of are laws regardless of subject are vindictive and knee jerk. Just counting down the days till my exit from this state.

With some it is abject stupidity/ignorance.

With some it is abject dishonesty/lies.

With many it is both.

I got an Indiana lifetime permit that cost me around $100 so I'm not sure what the requirements are for renewal and since Indiana went constitutional carry this month there will be many that don't get a permit. I do because I travel out of state and want to be able to carry in those states that require a permit

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In IL a new applicant is required to do 16 hours of instruction. The qualifier is 30 rounds on a B-29 silhouette. 10 rounds each slow fire from 5, 7 & 10 yards. To pass 27 rounds must hit ANYWHERE on the silhouette. Strangely there is no restriction on the pistol used for the qual. Instructor's tell me target .22s have been used!

Recertification is required every 5 years. It's a 5 hour class and a reshoot on the qualifier.

Not entirely true on the live fire. You must hit to get 230 points out of the possible 300 (70%). The entire silhouette does not have scoring capability. Parts of the silhouette are outside of the scoring rings, so hits there would count as zero points.

Very predictable that NY will make people jump thru as many hoops as possible to get a CCW. And milk as many fees as they can out of applicants along the way.
Anyone shooting an assailant and not following EXACTLY lengthy and many protocols that will apply will find the training course used against them.
I would not be surprised if NY will require CCW people to be bonded as well.

Not exactly.
The scoring is hit or miss. Scoring rings are not used.
Target is specified as the B-27.
The scoring area use to be the center mass 11"X14". Now it is anything in the black on the target.
Course of fire is 30 rds. 10 rds at the 5 yd, 10 rds at the 7 yd, and 10 rds at the 10 yd line.
Minimum number of hits is 70% which is 21 hits in the black.
The course of fire is listed in the statute and in the Ad Rules.

IL statute says a B-27 target is to be used. The B-29 is 1/2 size.
21 hits not 27.
Caliber is whatever you want to shoot. Nothing in either the statute nor ad rules mention caliber.
Altho I have seen and heard from other instructors people try to use the Judge and .410 shot shells. None I've talked to have allowed it. There's no way to score hit or misses with shot shells.

For another's concern IL is shall issue. That includes Chicago which is no different than the rest of the state for CCW licensing and carry.

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183rd FBINA

That must have changed since the original statute. When I took the course (one of the first after the rules were published), it was 70% scoring.

Tennessee has an 8 hour class and live fire test. The live fire test is about the same as Texas. I got mine thirty some years ago and it’s easier now but wasn’t difficult back then. I think the cost is $100 for 8 years.

It’s hard to show causation and directionality for a few reasons:

- The states with the strictest gun control, have the most gun violence. But they also have high population densities and lots of social problems. They also tend to be pretty diverse with lots of what we will just call “issues” to stay away from all of the banned forum topics, which pretty well outline many of those issues.

- I lived in SD for the largest portion of my life and I ran the permit versus population numbers once and determined 1 in 7 adults in SD had concealed carry permits, although I suspect the number carrying daily was probably 1 in 14 to 1 in 20 adults range. Still, an armed society is a polite society and with 1 in 7 or even 1 in 20 chance of the person you are fixing to start something with is armed with a gun, you are likely to reconsider whether you really want to start anything at all. I saw much higher levels of tolerance and politeness in SD than I saw in DC, VA, NC or MN when I lived in those states.

It’s clear however, that gun control doesn’t address the things that underpin gun violence.

It’s also pretty clear that the vast majority of mass shootings and gun crime are not committed by gun people. The Vegas shooter was a exception but most gun criminal, like most police officers, just are not “gun people”. The pattern in most mass shootings seems to be a mail adjusted individual bent on suicide buying or otherwise obtaining a gun for the purpose of the shooting.

In contrast if you’ve been a gun owner for a few years and have not yet done something criminal or stupid with it, you’re a pretty good risk.

Several states have done studies on concealed handgun permit holders and the results have been consistent, finding concealed carry permit holders are 6 to 7 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than a police officer. Police officers in turn are about 3 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than the general public. That makes concealed carry permit holders about 20 times less likely to commit a crime than the average person.

Concealed carry permits, and the vetting involved are a good thing.

In Idaho there are three levels of CCW: Constitutional Carry for Idaho citizens, a limited CCW permit that is just fee based giving you privileges in some neighboring states, and the enhanced CCW that requires a live-fire shoot demonstrating proficiency (up to instructor to determine) with an 8 hour class. The enhanced CCW is good in something like 38 states and allows carry on University campuses and replaces NICS checks, good for 5 years.

The Idaho LEOSA shoot is done by our local Sheriff's Department and consists of a 15 round course, all from ready position, at 10 yards. No time limits, no reloading, and three stages of 5 rounds each. I could likely pass this in my sleep while handcuffed. There is no cost but you supply your own firearm and ammo. Your permit, good in all 50 states, says "handgun."

I took the Enhanced class for the firearms purchasing benefits, but our "instructor" was a fool. I won't go into detail of all his inanities, but his course of fire was 100 rounds at 10 yards into a 10" circle. However, it was not scored and was just to see how you handle the firearm. I kept mine in a group the size of a baseball, and the instructor was snarky about that. My online review was not kind to him.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I’m working on a trip to Boise in the near future, and to me, Idaho’s statute reads “any citizen of the United States,” which is how most permitless carry state’s statutes read. Please correct me if I’m wrong and point me to a different statute than the one I read . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I’ll speak to the states I have experience with:

South Dakota:

At the time I lived there SD charged $5 for a permit. It did not require a fingerprint background check. It took less than a week to get the permit from the local sheriffs office.

Since then they have added the enhanced permit amd gold card permit options to the regular permit.

The enhanced permit requires:
- a finger print background check
- academic training including;
South Dakota law relating to firearms and the use of force;
The basic concepts of the safe and responsible use of handguns;
Self-defense principles; and
-live fire “training” with at least 98 rounds fired by the student.

The gold card permit is the same as the regular permit but with a finger print back ground check.

As of July 1 2022, they have waived all the permit fees, except for county level administration fees, like finger print fees.

Virginia:

At the time I was there (2007) they required a finger print background check and academic training but no live fire training.

The state law required the permit application be processed within 45 days. Since I lived in Arlington county which is pretty anti gun, after nearly six months of calling and asking about it, I went down and demanded it. They got it out of a file drawer in less than a minute, and I gathered they just elected to deny the permits were processed until people showed up or lawyered up.

North Carolina:

NC require 8 hours of academic training, 4 hours of which is Gun safety and 4 hours of which is in the laws pertaining to the use of lethal force in self defense. They also require a finger print background check, and a release to check the two state hospitals for mental health treatment records.

They also require live fire “qualification”. The courses are approved by the state and the standards for the live fire qualification are left to the discretion of the person seeking course approval, although it does need to be approved. Most seem to use one of the various law enforcement qualification courses with 40 or 50 pounds and require something on the order of 80% of the rounds to hit a B-27 target.

This was done with a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45 ACP. The nines we the result of pushing a little too much in some double taps and the 8 is just embarrassing. Most of the people qualifying however had rounds scattered all over the target. I don’t recall anyone not qualifying so it’s still a low bar.



Minnesota

MN also required a finger print background check, a one day academic course and live fire “qualification”.

The qualification was more of a pass/fail “can you shoot a gun safely and hit a B-27 sized target at 5 yards” exercise. The instructor worked with the students 1 on 1 and as watched him coach students until they could reliably hit the target.

When he got to me he noted I was shooting and K frame revolver and asked me to fire six rounds at the target. I had my 3” Model 66 with my .357 Mag self defense load and put all six shots in a 1.5” group in the x ring of a B-27 target at five yards rapid fire.

He said “I noticed you did that double action, that’s good”. He asked me if I was shooting .357 Mag and I replied I was. He said “of course” followed by “you passed” and moving on to the next student. So that was it - six rounds.

Louisiana is close to this. I think you shoot 50 from 3 to 7 yards. Just have to keep all your rounds on the paper. If there's a big hole in the middle you'e good.

Thanks for clarification ispcapt.

I incorrectly identified the BIG silhouette. I had no idea you could pull 7 out of the black and pass! That's just scary.

I originally shot it with a 3" 36-1. For my requal last year I used my 640P. Both times I choked and pulled a single round out into the 9 ring.

The Attorney General's Web Site has the following language:
AND:
The statute has the following language:
Then the State of Idaho website has the following quotation:
The way it was explained to me by the CCW attorney was that Idaho residents have Constitutional Carry, but if you are from another State you must have a CCW that Idaho recognizes. The language from the AG website seems to indicate that ANYONE can CC here, but I think that is just a poorly framed statement, and looks to be taken from the perspective of an Idaho citizen asking the question. The second quote I pulled from the AG website states that you must carry your recognized CCW from another state while carrying concealed. If it was constitutional carry for any US Citizen, this would have been answered differently.

The actual statute and the State of Idaho web sites indicate Constitutional Carry is for residents only. However, I was Law Enforcement, not an attorney, so I can just pass along what I have been told.

FWIW - Additionally, the Concealed Carry Law smartphone application states that Idaho is constitutional carry state for residents only.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Then can you explain this from Idaho’s website:

Gun & Weapon Law | The Official Website of the State of Idaho

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It always has been and is still 70% scoring. 30 shots fired, 21 needed to qualify. That was set in the ad rules from the beginning. If the person who did your class was scoring the rings then he was not doing it by the statute. And that would not be unusual either. There were some really fast and loose instructors who had their certs revoked. No doubt there are still some.

Pretty much scary. I've said from the beginning that IL's CCW qualification shoot is not a qualification shoot. It's really nothing more than a weapon function check. The 20 rds at the 5 yd and 7 yd should be a gimme if anyone is paying attention to what they're doing. Then at 10 yds they only have to hit the target once in 10 rds. That should be a gimme too but surprising how many people will fail. And that is really really scary.

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183rd FBINA

Muss, you know as well as I do that the smart move is to contact the state AG’s office for clarification if there is any ambiguity involved, and their is given the requirement that persons with out of state permits must keep the permit with them while conceal carrying.

You don’t want to rely on the AG’s statement on the website as a defense and find out it was in error or out of context any more than I would.

So..what you are doing here is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Any States mandating a speech class before exercising your 1st Amendment rights? Just wondering ��.

No, what I'm doing is trying to find out why the statute is ambiguous. As you well and undoubtedly know, given your vast experience in these matters, contacting the state AG's office is as reliable as the person answering the inquiry, who won't be available to testify at the trial. But your ad hominem interjection is duly noted. . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In our Enhanced CCW class the lawyer said Constitutional Carry was for Idaho residents only (6 months minimum residency requirement)...and Idaho residents have to meet that list of requirements you pulled from the AG website about age, US Citizen, etc.. FWIW the Concealed Carry Laws website/app states that constitutional carry is for Residents Only.

If Constitutional Carry was legal for out-of-staters, the AG website would not mention that they MUST CARRY THEIR CCW ISSUED BY THEIR HOME STATE AT ALL TIMES.

The section you quoted is referring to IDAHO RESIDENTS as the statute clearly states at the beginning and I quoted above.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I did find the following at the NRA site, so I understand the confusion. I think the crux is wether or not you are in a city, township, etc.:

But I think you are correct that there is conflicting guidance on the State of Idaho site and the AG site.

If you want, I can call the AG's office on Monday and ask...let me know.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I said “contact”. I didn’t think I needed to specify “in writing” so that you get a written response that you can use in your defense. Generally speaking when the law is ambiguous, but you have in fact formally asked and been formally notified in writing by the AG’s office that what you plan to do is legal, it’s still a pretty solid defense if it happens to be wrong. It doesn’t mean some overly zealous officer won’t arrest you, but it does make it a lot less likely you’ll be prosecuted.

——-

In my past experience in interpreting and enforcing laws we often looked at the red line versions of bills that were enacted to determine precisely what was changed when a law was amended, and when available committee notes to determine the actual legislative intent.

In this case look at the red line version of the bill under (4)(f)(ii):

“(3) No person shall carry concealed weapons on or about his person without a license to carry concealed weapons, except:…

…(4) Subsection (3) of this section shall not apply to restrict or prohibit the carrying or possession of:…

…(f) Any deadly weapon concealed by a person who is:..
…(ii) A resident citizen of Idaho the United States or a current member of the armed forces of the United States;”

It won’t show in the copy/pasted text, but you will see the strike through text in the linked document that replaced “resident of Idaho” with “Citizen of the United States”.

https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-con...tion/H0516.pdf

But…I’d still confirm it with the AG’s office in writing as a bill being signed into law by the governor doesn’t always mean the law wasn’t challenged, stayed by a court, or otherwise interpreted differently by a cognizant agency and/or AG’s office.

The issue in this amended law is that they added exceptions to subsection (3) in subsection (4) that includes the constitutional carry provision under (4](f):

“(f) Any deadly weapon concealed by a person who is:
(i) Over eighteen (18) years of age;
(ii) A resident citizen of Idaho the United States or a current
member of the armed forces of the United States; and
(iii) Is not disqualified from being issued a license under paraagraphs (b) through (n) of subsection (11) of this section.”

The legislature for what ever reasons also did not remove the existing exception language under (5)(g)

“(5) The requirement to secure a license to carry concealed weapons under this section shall not apply to the following persons:…

…(g) Any person who has physical possession of his valid license or permit authorizing him to carry concealed weapons from another state.”

Clearly the replacement of the “resident of Idaho” language with “citizen of the United States” in (4)(f) means the language at (5)(g) is superfluous, but they didn’t strike it, so it creates some confusion, but any ambiguity in interpretation normally won’t go against a defendant in a matter with a criminal penalty under the concept of the Rule of Lenity.

Still, attorneys are an overly cautious bunch and they will give you the most risk averse and most conservative “keep you out of trouble” interpretation when faced with ambiguity - which just adds confusion.

——

But getting a written opinion from the AG is helpful and covers your legal bases.

In many states the AG has addressed the same question before and there is often an AG opinion letter that can be provided either on the website or via a w rotten copy.

OKLAHOMA:
CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.
OKLAHOMA RECOGNZES ALL STATE-ISSUED CARRY LICENSES.

If you want an OK carry license (for carry in other states), residents and PCS military take a one-day course with live fire at 3 and 5 yards, without violating range safety rules. Targets are not scored. Use any caliber.

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Science plus Art

There are a lot of mainstream media outlets (1st Amendment) that operate out of New York; is there any requirement for them to pass a test for accuracy?

From NEW YORK STATE RIFLE & PISTOL ASSN., INC. v. BRUEN

The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not “a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.” McDonald, 561 U. S., at 780 (plurality opinion). The exercise of other constitutional rights does not require individuals to demonstrate to government officers some special need. The Second Amendment right to carry arms in public for self- defense is no different.

More on topic, Washington has no testing requirements.

I agree that it's scary. During my renewal range time, one of the guy was using a .22 auto. If that's what you need to make sure you can qualify, then you shouldn't be carrying. As responsible gun owners, we have a responsibility to be likely to hit the target in a self defense scenario. Hitting innocent bystanders will reflect on all of us. While I dislike California generally, I agree with the requirement to shoot a carry gun in the live fire qualification.

No live fire or classroom time is required in Washington. It's shall issue and thanks to statewide pre-emption, locals can't make up local rules. Doesn't mean they don't try now and then. My last renewal was online and showed up in the mail shortly thereafter. Although it's annoying to be milked by the system for a right, CPLs are still pretty reasonable here. I wish I could say the same for the other onerous laws recently passed.

Your first paragraph is what I’m referring to. They never want to address the root problems. That might cost them some votes. The governor of Illinois says guns are the problem in Chicago. Not gangs.

I have mixed opinions . I've been in CHP classes with people that had no business owning a firearm much less carrying one in public . They were going to be a danger to themselves and others .

I didn't see any Florida replies so.....
When I got my permit in 1988 we had 4 hours classroom, 4 hours range. Box of 50 .38 reloads provided. No minimum score necessary from the 30 rds although some Brinks guys mixed in needed 98/150 to pass. Some didn't.
Currently, the State of Florida "assumes proficiency" in the folks wanting a license. My wife did it maybe 10 years ago, paid her money at the Orlando gunshow, sat the 2 hours, went out to the "container range", popped off her 2 shots and "here's your signed." Since Khaled bought the show you need to go to the Apopka store to pop your rounds, or at least that's how it was a few years ago when "the Doc" was paying for everybody who asked him for the "class." Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

I agree, although I think North Carolina does it better than any state I’ve lived and carried in.

Live fire qualification in NC is also designed to ensure the person can safety handle a firearm, and in fact that’s far more important than the qualification score.

A legitimate instructor is going to fail a person who demonstrates unsafe gun handling. If they are just not the kind of person who can handle a gun safety he’ll take them aside and suggest they opt for another method of self defense.

The 8 hours of academics, split 4 and 4 between gun safety and laws pertaining to the use of lethal force in self defense also play a role. The first drives the point home that improperly handled guns can cause harm to self or others, and the second drives home the point that if you shoot someone without being confronted with a narrowly defined imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury, you are going to jail. A good instructor also makes it clear that unless it’s a crystal clear case with numerous witnesses supporting the fact it was a good shoot, you are probably still going to jail until the states attorneys office comes to a decision on the validity of the self defense aspects of the shoot.

Given what’s learned in the course, I suspect a lot of people learn it’s not what they thought it was and either don’t follow through with the permit application, or don’t actually carry concealed. In NC a concealed handgun permit satisfies the Brady requirement and no NICS check is required.

And of course a I suspect there are a few people who take the class as part of the prerequisites for applying for the permit and are subsequently denied based on the criminal background check or mental health check.

However, you have to balance that with the reality that NC is also an open carry state. Personally, when I’m in line at a convenience store and see someone open carrying I ask myself “why can’t or won’t he get a concealed carry permit? ” and then keep an eye on him as a potential threat.

My sole objection to the NC process is that it’s ultimately expensive, currently costing between $300 and $350 to get a permit, once you add up course fees, live fire qualification ammo costs, permit fees and finger print fees. That’s by design and is a hold over from a past….exclusionary practice. And to be fair that’s one reason the open carry guy in the stab and grab may be open carrying.

——

Minnesota did nearly as well in terms of their over all education curriculum, and having a live fire training requirement. It was slightly less expensive than in an NC *initially* given I basically CLEP’d out of the training portion with just 6 rounds. Minnesota however requires the training to be repeated within 12 months of renewing the permit.

——-

South Dakota’s approach is interesting as they’ve always had a low cost, no finger print back ground check, no training required concealed carry permit, and it’s only been within about the last 15 years (since I left the state) that they adopted the additional Gold Card and Enhanced permits.

The gold card permit adds a finger print back ground check.

The Enhanced permit adds academic training and live fire training. In addition, unlike most states with training and or live fire requirements, SD requires those items to be repeated during the period of the permit for the permit to be renewed.

The incentive was supposed to be greater reciprocity, but the enhanced permit is currently recognized by 39 states, compared to 34 for the Gold Card permit and Regular permits. Five states isn’t a big difference, but the big sell is that neither NE or MN recognize the Regular or Gold Permits but do recognize the Enhanced permit.

But..the interesting part is that South Dakota became a Constitutional Carry state, and as of July 1, 2022 also dropped the fees for its permits which were previously $10, $40 and $60 respectively.

My take away on that is that SD would much prefer their residents get a permit rather than just rely on Constitutional Carry, and that they’d prefer people opt for the higher level permits for the training and/or background check they’d get in the process.

In short, despite Constitutional Carry, the state seems to have some unspoken reservations about just anyone carrying concealed without training or a back ground check.

In MN, 4 hour class which includes 12 rounds live fired. Not scored, but to observe gun safety skills.

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Common sense isn't so common.

The MN permit doesn't require fingerprints.

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Common sense isn't so common.

CA permitting is through your county (permit valid statewide). The state requires live-fire be part of the course, however, I believe the content of the live-fire is up to the county. My counties range requirement:

12 rounds: 4 rounds at 5 yards, 2 rounds gun hand only then 2 rounds support hand only from 5 yards, and 4 rounds at 7 yards. The passing score is 75% which equals missing 3 rounds outside the bottle outline on a standard FBI-Q target or its equivalent.

I've seen the support hand only section require remediation.

All weapons you are authorized to carry are listed by serial number (up to 10) on your permit. You must qualify with each one listed.

I have thought of adding one of my .22s to the mix just for certain outdoor activities including ad hoc small game hunting.

Arizona no longer requires any live fire which I think is a mistake. It was only 10 - 15 rounds in the past at a USPSA target from 10 yards. All you had to do was hit the target.

I even saw a blind guy get his CCW after watching him miss the target with all 10 shots. The instructor kept him after we all left and coached him. He was given his CCW.

Last time I renewed the instructor tried to talk everyone out of getting their permit. Arizona has open carry and you don't need a permit for concealed. Only reason I got mine this time is for when I want to buy a gun. I don't have to wait for the FBI background check.