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  #101  
Old 07-19-2022, 11:42 PM
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I wish to also make note of these two young men who sacrificed their lives in efforts to stop a shooter --- Kendrick Castillo and Tate Myre were young MEN. They should be remembered and honored. They stepped up in an instant and did the extraordinary. After some of these incidents which became far worse, I ask myself "Where were the MEN"? In these two school shootings --Highlands Ranch Colorado May 2019 (Kendrick) and Oxford HS Michigan 11/21 (Tate). I know where the MEN were ......

... and now Elisjsha, another MAN has stepped up, did what needed to be done, and thankfully survived. He was the RIGHT man (SO much goes into being THAT) at the right place and time saving who knows how many other lives! ..... Kendrick, Tate, and Elisjsha ---- MEN !!
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  #102  
Old 07-20-2022, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RCL-09 View Post
Do you advocate that for the 1st Amendment too? Can I go onto your property and/or place of business and give a speech on the dangers of guns?
Sure- You can have whatever you want printed on a T-shirt that is concealed under your hoodie or jacket, the same way my concealed carry gun is hidden from view.

I should have emphasized the aspect of "concealed" in my statement, but most of the time the queens squeal the same anyway. There is nothing "private" about letting the public mass access your facility, either by free entrance (like the mall) or by paying an admission fee (like the theater). Concealed carry has zero implications to almost any standard businesses model, with potential exceptions including something like a water park or gymnasium.
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  #103  
Old 07-20-2022, 08:10 AM
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My EDC is a 340PD or sometimes an LCP & read this young man was carrying a Glock 19. I wonder how many of us carry enough gun to make that shot.
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  #104  
Old 07-20-2022, 09:52 AM
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In that scenario I'd sure be wishing for more than the BG380 I habitually pocket carry. Another reason to keep considering the LCP MAX.

i regularly practice with my BG out to 25 yards, only because that's the distance from my seat as greeter/usher at church to the entrance. Last week, at the range, I got out my old four inch Highway Patrolman, and put five of six on a paper plate at 50 yards. I turned to my shooting buddy and said maybe this is what I should start carrying. Not likely to happen. I can't even get myself to regularly carry my .45 Shield.
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  #105  
Old 07-20-2022, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rustyt1953 View Post
....7 hits @40 yards ......
There isn't a range in my area where I could even practice hand gunning at that distance. It's 25 yard max, and I usually stop at 20, thinking "what are the odds I'll ever have to take a shot that long?".
Might need a rethink, especially after I finish my cataracts surgeries.






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  #106  
Old 07-20-2022, 10:37 AM
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Sure- You can have whatever you want printed on a T-shirt that is concealed under your hoodie or jacket, the same way my concealed carry gun is hidden from view.

I should have emphasized the aspect of "concealed" in my statement, but most of the time the queens squeal the same anyway. There is nothing "private" about letting the public mass access your facility, either by free entrance (like the mall) or by paying an admission fee (like the theater). Concealed carry has zero implications to almost any standard businesses model, with potential exceptions including something like a water park or gymnasium.
You are avoiding the question.

Can I go onto your property and/or place of business and give a speech on the dangers of guns?

Can I post a Biden for President political sign on your front lawn? Can I set up a podium on your property and give speeches that you may find offensive?
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  #107  
Old 07-20-2022, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
There isn't a range in my area where I could even practice hand gunning at that distance. It's 25 yard max, and I usually stop at 20, thinking "what are the odds I'll ever have to take a shot that long?".
Might need a rethink, especially after I finish my cataracts surgeries.






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Think about how long of a shot you could take in Walmart or some grocery stores.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

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  #108  
Old 07-20-2022, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
There isn't a range in my area where I could even practice hand gunning at that distance. It's 25 yard max, and I usually stop at 20, thinking "what are the odds I'll ever have to take a shot that long?".
Might need a rethink, especially after I finish my cataracts surgeries.
After cataract surgery, depending on what your vision choice is, I can let you know what it did to me for aiming handguns and long guns.
I am 20/20 for distance and the VA and I are experimenting with two pair of glasses for firearms, archery, reading music and woodwork chores.

Good luck and see you in another thread.
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  #109  
Old 07-20-2022, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Rustyt1953 View Post
According to Newsweek Mr Dicken faced a Sig Sauer M400 armed with a 9mm Glock. To repeat; 7 hits @40 yards in 15 seconds.

The Greenwood PD should recruit him.
He might have trained with Daisy's boss.

Made my Ruger Officer into a nine shot 45 soon after bringing it home. Not as many as the M59 but it is what it is.
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  #110  
Old 07-20-2022, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
My EDC is a 340PD or sometimes an LCP & read this young man was carrying a Glock 19. I wonder how many of us carry enough gun to make that shot.
I wonder how many of us could make that shot, under those circumstances, with any handgun.
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  #111  
Old 07-20-2022, 12:56 PM
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I wonder how many of us could make that shot, under those circumstances, with any handgun.
Good point!
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  #112  
Old 07-20-2022, 01:17 PM
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The hero was a great marksman along with being brave and fast acting. However I have to note that it took seven 9mm rounds to stop the threat and even then the the bad guy made it back to the bathroom.I might trade in my nines and get a small large bore something.
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  #113  
Old 07-20-2022, 02:17 PM
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The hero was a great marksman along with being brave and fast acting. However I have to note that it took seven 9mm rounds to stop the threat and even then the the bad guy made it back to the bathroom.I might trade in my nines and get a small large bore something.
People are a lot more resilient than most would believe. Even a bullet directy to the heart means the bad guy has 30 more seconds to operate if they are goal oriented. A lot of bad things can happen in 30 seconds.

The only way to immediately turn of the switch is a shot specifically to the base of the brain or the upper portion of the spinal cord. That's a small targer...that moves around quite a bit.

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  #114  
Old 07-20-2022, 02:21 PM
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The hero was a great marksman along with being brave and fast acting. However I have to note that it took seven 9mm rounds to stop the threat and even then the the bad guy made it back to the bathroom.I might trade in my nines and get a small large bore something.
I'd bet that the same hits with a .44 magnum wouldn't have stopped the assailant any faster.
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  #115  
Old 07-20-2022, 02:30 PM
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People are a lot more resilient than most would believe. Even a bullet directy to the heart means the bad guy has 30 more seconds to operate if they are goal oriented. A lot of bad things can happen in 30 seconds.

The only way to immediately turn of the switch is a shot specifically to the base of the brain or the upper portion of the spinal cord. That's a small targer...that moves around quite a bit.

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Exactly. Where were the hits? At 40 yards, under fire, in a life and death confrontation, seven out of ten is damn good shooting. Also, the handgun is the lowest common denominator in a self defense shooting.
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  #116  
Old 07-20-2022, 02:57 PM
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FWIW, as a retired cop and police firearms instructor, I can state with great certainty that this young man performed as well or better than many of our men and women in blue. Under incredible stress and 120 feet from the bad guy, the "Samaritan" made 8 of 10 center mass hits, stopping the attacker. Would be interesting to know how long it took to get off 10 shots. Hat's off to this young man.
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  #117  
Old 07-20-2022, 03:12 PM
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Exactly. Where were the hits? At 40 yards, under fire, in a life and death confrontation, seven out of ten is damn good shooting. Also, the handgun is the lowest common denominator in a self defense shooting.
I agree. This was fantastic work with a relatively ineffective, or should I say less than ideal platform.

His hit percentage is outstanding.

I was just commenting regarding resilience to point out the fact that most people fail to crumple and cease all aggressive behavior after one shot...things just don't work that way. Yes, sometimes, but rarely.

The bad guy always gets a vote in these things...and caliber choice usually has minimal change on the equation.

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Old 07-20-2022, 03:13 PM
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Unless, of course, if he was shot with a 9mm weapon of war. In that case, one bullet would blow his lung clean out of his body.

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  #119  
Old 07-20-2022, 04:23 PM
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Thank god he didn't use Black Talons.... Those go through the target, blow out lungs, create a vacuum that disembowels anyone withing 100 yards, and then seeks out infant children...
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  #120  
Old 07-20-2022, 04:29 PM
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Unless, of course, if he was shot with a 9mm weapon of war. In that case, one bullet would blow his lung clean out of his body.

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Any specific grain?
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  #121  
Old 07-20-2022, 04:31 PM
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I hear the 9mm 125 megaton grain is one of the more dangerous ones... When shot out of a pocket rocket they travel at Mach 7.5
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Old 07-20-2022, 05:02 PM
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I hear the 9mm 125 megaton grain is one of the more dangerous ones... When shot out of a pocket rocket they travel at Mach 7.5
True, but it is not just the bullet of war per se. Many of this military grade weapons of war have stripey-spinny things in the barrel that actually causes the bullet to rotate for more death power.

True. All true.

All jokes aside, that was some quick reaction followed by some fine shooting while under fire.

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Old 07-20-2022, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
I think the young man was
a highly skilled gun owner
with probably a great interest
in being proficient

But all concealed carry people
young and old are not necessarily
as dedicated as he is nor as
interested and dedicated as members
of forums such as this one.

And yet each and everyone is a
potential hero or a potential walking
disaster---enter the vast gray areas
of gun use, good guy vs. bad guy.

Like it or not, it's something to be
considered even though many
anti-gunners preach it.

My comments are within the
discussion of the mall shooting,
not one-on-one confrontations
where a concealed carry person
is defending only him/herself.
More power to the concealed
carry person in that situation.
Don't lose sight of the fact that the bad guy created the situation. It had already gone south when the defender engaged to stop the attack. Any collateral damage is on the perpetrator, not the defender.

(yes, I know that if there had been casualties caused by the defender, there could have been legal consequences. We really need a Good Samaritan Law for these situations)
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Old 07-20-2022, 06:11 PM
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I am waiting for some of the "more gifted" journalists to ask "why did the gunman have to shoot to kill a mentally challenger person, why not just shoot below the legs?"

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Old 07-20-2022, 06:20 PM
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I am waiting for some of the "more gifted" journalists to ask "why did the gunman have to shoot to kill a mentally challenger person, why not just shoot below the legs?"

73,
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You mean shoot the floor?
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Old 07-20-2022, 06:26 PM
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It's a proven fact that criminals commit less crime after they have been shot.
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  #127  
Old 07-20-2022, 06:55 PM
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Nothing travels at Mach 7.5
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I hear the 9mm 125 megaton grain is one of the more dangerous ones... When shot out of a pocket rocket they travel at Mach 7.5
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Old 07-20-2022, 06:55 PM
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I have what I consider defensive handguns. The are J frame Smiths.
I also have what I consider offensive handguns. 1911’s, sig 229 and H&K USP.
They are no match for a long gun.
It looks like our criminal was not very experienced with his rifle.
In any case it looks like our hero took decisive action before our bad guy could react.
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  #129  
Old 07-20-2022, 07:02 PM
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Job well done. Nothing else to add.
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Old 07-20-2022, 09:01 PM
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I have what I consider defensive handguns. The are J frame Smiths.
I also have what I consider offensive handguns. 1911’s, sig 229 and H&K USP.
They are no match for a long gun.
It looks like our criminal was not very experienced with his rifle.
In any case it looks like our hero took decisive action before our bad guy could react.
Most of these bad guys are not trained and don't expect a sheepdog returning fire among the sheep. Most of these bad guys are not training while under fire. They may expect a shootout with LE, but not from among the targets. And this isn't the only good guy with a handgun that took out someone with a rifle. You can give the bad guy a bazooka and the good guy a slingshot. If the bad guy doesn't know how to properly use a bazooka, that good guy with a slingshot can take him out. It is not the tool, it is the person using that tool. And until we can all open carry rifles everywhere we go, we have to train for this scenario.

Last edited by snowman1967; 07-20-2022 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 07-20-2022, 09:29 PM
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The report I saw today said the shooter was down in 15 seconds (by camera clock) and the Good Samaritan got 8 out of 10 hits at 40 yards. Outstanding if that's correct.
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Old 07-20-2022, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
My EDC is a 340PD or sometimes an LCP & read this young man was carrying a Glock 19. I wonder how many of us carry enough gun to make that shot.
My M&P 2.0 9c 4" is a comparable gun, but that's not to say I could have done the same.



We all want to believe we'd act in a similar manner if we were in a similar situation. But until you've been there you simply don't/cannot know what you would or would not do. let's hope we never have to find out.
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Old 07-20-2022, 10:04 PM
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An interesting take....
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Old 07-21-2022, 12:50 AM
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8 (9?) hits at ~40 yards within 15 seconds. How many of you can do that. When I was young I used to carry either a 1911 45acp or a S&W 45 Colt and was a very good shot. But now at 71 I've (and I've lost a lot of weight) I've started carrying a .380. Going back to practicing (and carrying) with at least a 9mm.
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Old 07-21-2022, 07:33 AM
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Nothing travels at Mach 7.5
Not even those UFOs the Gubmint is finally let us get a look at????
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Old 07-21-2022, 07:54 AM
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40 yards, 10 shots, 8 hits, 15 seconds. Is that the new drill?

Apparently no formal training.

You know he practiced.

Of course the media and the anti's don't approve.
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Old 07-21-2022, 08:12 AM
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Notice the conservatives on the wiki page praised the legally armed citizen while the dems only commented on the increase in gun violence.
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Old 07-21-2022, 08:39 AM
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It's a proven fact that criminals commit less crime after they have been shot.
And the Death Penalty would reduce the amount of repeat offenders. Larry
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Old 07-21-2022, 09:07 AM
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Was the young man using irons or optics?

Thx,
RT
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Old 07-21-2022, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by handejector View Post
Private Property Queens?

"No shirt, no shoes, no service" just ain't right either. I should be able to eat in the nude if I want to.

You have the right not to go to those places. They have a right to make the rules. I'm not anxious to see the rights of property owners eroded any further.
Sorry, but when your "private property" is open to public access, you give-up absolute privileges on controlling what can or can't occur that location, and who can access it. Plenty of laws regarding this already.

But let's refer to three common "codes of conduct" points- "no vulgar clothing" , "no outside food" and "no weapons".

If I wear a vulgar t-shirt, but have it covered by a jacket or hoodie, is that a problem? Does the mall even care or should they even care?

If I have a small pack of peanuts in my pocket that I brought from home, leave it in my pocket while I shop in mall, have I disrespected the owners property rights?

How is that different than a concealed weapon?

I completely understand why a business establishment would want to control things that can specificly cause disruption or impact sales in their location- open carry of weapons could definitely fit that description. The textbook example are the two morons in the Starbucks with long-guns on point slings.

Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-21-2022 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 07-21-2022, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
Sorry, but when your "private property" is open to public access, you give-up absolute privileges on controlling what can or can't occur that location, and who can access it.
No, you don't. I run a small venue that's occasionally open to the public and I don't have to allow anyone I don't want there, nor must I permit behavior that I, personally, find objectionable.

Controlling access to and behavior on private property isn't a "privilege", it's an absolute right.
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Old 07-21-2022, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
No, you don't. I run a small venue that's occasionally open to the public and I don't have to allow anyone I don't want there, nor must I permit behavior that I, personally, find objectionable.

Controlling access to and behavior on private property isn't a "privilege", it's an absolute right.
See how far you get with limiting access or conduct of certain identified groups and let me know how that goes.

Anyway, why don't you let us know your thoughts on my "code of conduct" questions?
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Old 07-21-2022, 01:04 PM
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The big takeaway for me is, if you can brace or prop off of something, do it!
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Old 07-21-2022, 02:07 PM
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See how far you get with limiting access or conduct of certain identified groups and let me know how that goes.
Sarah Sanders was booted from a restaurant strictly because the owners didn't like her politics. It seemed to go pretty well for those people.

"open to the public" and "publicly owned" are different things. If Walmart doesn't want someone in their store, they can boot them without explanation. [yeah, there may be laws somewhere ...] Arbitrarily booting people from an open venue is pretty counter-productive and could get a person a lot of blowback. But as far as I'm aware, it's not illegal.
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Old 07-21-2022, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
Sarah Sanders was booted from a restaurant strictly because the owners didn't like her politics. It seemed to go pretty well for those people.

"open to the public" and "publicly owned" are different things. If Walmart doesn't want someone in their store, they can boot them without explanation. [yeah, there may be laws somewhere ...] Arbitrarily booting people from an open venue is pretty counter-productive and could get a person a lot of blowback. But as far as I'm aware, it's not illegal.
A non-publicly recognizable individual with the exact same politics as Sarah Saunders could dine at exact same restaurant without issue if they kept their beliefs to themselves.

And yes, we are all well aware of the difference in ownership between "public property" and "open to the public property".

Once again, take a crack at the vulgar clothing/outside food/defensive weapon "code of conduct" question? Explain why keeping two of the three concealed and not accessed during a visit causes no real heartburn, but the third is a huge violation of private property "rights".
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Old 07-21-2022, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
No, you don't. I run a small venue that's occasionally open to the public and I don't have to allow anyone I don't want there, nor must I permit behavior that I, personally, find objectionable.

Controlling access to and behavior on private property isn't a "privilege", it's an absolute right.
BINGO!

And any limitations you have are not an infringement of the BoR since those are limitations on government actions.
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Old 07-21-2022, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RCL-09 View Post
BINGO!

And any limitations you have are not an infringement of the BoR since those are limitations on government actions.
Interesting- So a local bar owner can limit access to any alphabet people he finds offensive?

Good to know... ;-)
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Old 07-21-2022, 04:52 PM
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Interesting- So a local bar owner can limit access to any alphabet people he finds offensive?

Good to know... ;-)
Good to see you distorting what was actually said.
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Old 07-21-2022, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RCL-09 View Post
Good to see you distorting what was actually said.
In reality, I did not distort a single thing.

He statement was pretty clear...

"I don't have to allow anyone I don't want there, nor must I permit behavior that I, personally, find objectionable."

Sorry guys, I am not going keep going back and forth on this. If I can LEGALLY walk off a public sidewalk and into your "private property" retail/dining/entertainment venue, MY policy for the safety of myself and my family OVERRIDES your policies. You can bluster, retort, pontificate all you want about your "rights", but unless you are running expensive active concealed weapon detection protocols, you won't be the wiser, and it won't hurt you or your business one bit. Your policy will be viewed by me with the same level of respect as one prohibiting red colored underwear.The funny thing is that I usually try to courteously follow almost all policies that actually impact business operations, but I draw the line at safety and security.

Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-21-2022 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 07-21-2022, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
In reality, I did not distort a single thing.

He statement was pretty clear...

"I don't have to allow anyone I don't want there, nor must I permit behavior that I, personally, find objectionable."

Sorry guys, I am not going keep going back and forth on this. If I can LEGALLY walk off a public sidewalk and into your "private property" retail/dining/entertainment venue, MY policy for the safety of myself and my family OVERRIDES your policies. You can bluster, retort, pontificate all you want about your "rights", but unless you are running expensive active concealed weapon detection protocols, you won't be the wiser, and it won't hurt you or your business one bit. Your policy will be viewed by me with the same level of respect as one prohibiting red colored underwear.The funny thing is that I usually try to courteously follow almost all policies that actually impact business operations, but I draw the line at safety and security.
Well, you can bluster, retort, pontificate all you want about your "rights", thankfully society and the courts disagree with you and protect private property rights, despite your disdain for them
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