|
|
|
07-21-2022, 06:28 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,353
Likes: 5,459
Liked 2,780 Times in 1,263 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter
Sorry guys, I am not going keep going back and forth on this. If I can LEGALLY walk off a public sidewalk and into your "private property" retail/dining/entertainment venue, MY policy for the safety of myself and my family OVERRIDES your policies.
|
Walk past a 30.06 sign in Texas. Class C misdemeanor. Similar laws exist in other places.
Interesting that you keep putting quotation marks around the phrase "private property" like it's some sort of theoretical concept. Owners of private property have rights. You can disrespect them all day, it's nothing to me. But they still exist.
(I should add for the record that I have no particular problem with the Indiana defender apparently walking past a "no weapons" sign that didn't carry the force of law anyway. I'd bet the mall owners probably don't mind either)
__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media
Last edited by AlHunt; 07-21-2022 at 06:34 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-21-2022, 07:01 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 1,263
Liked 1,662 Times in 620 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlHunt
Walk past a 30.06 sign in Texas. Class C misdemeanor. Similar laws exist in other places.
Interesting that you keep putting quotation marks around the phrase "private property" like it's some sort of theoretical concept. Owners of private property have rights. You can disrespect them all day, it's nothing to me. But they still exist.
(I should add for the record that I have no particular problem with the Indiana defender apparently walking past a "no weapons" sign that didn't carry the force of law anyway. I'd bet the mall owners probably don't mind either)
|
Exactly why I said LEGALLY. Most "policies" are not legally binding in themselves, with the only recourse being trespassing if remaining on property once asked to leave.
Very curious you posted your concurrence with the carrier's disregard of the Simeon policy.
|
07-21-2022, 07:06 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 1,263
Liked 1,662 Times in 620 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09
Well, you can bluster, retort, pontificate all you want about your "rights", thankfully society and the courts disagree with you and protect private property rights, despite your disdain for them
|
I absolutely have complete disdain for policies that patronize the safety of myself and family just to appease corporate legal teams. Businesses want me to come onto their property to spend my hard-earned money, but simultaneously deny my right to self-defense by a simple policy sign- yeah, right. I am not changing my view. When I visit the theater, I will be polite, courteous, and armed, regardless of sign behind the pimple faced ticket taker.
Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-21-2022 at 10:07 PM.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-21-2022, 07:13 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 44,571
Likes: 61,802
Liked 189,781 Times in 36,588 Posts
|
|
I just read that young Mr Dicken was taught to shoot by his grandfather.
Ya hear that grandpas? Keep up the good work.
__________________
Music/Sports/Beer fan
|
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 12:56 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Okoboji, IA
Posts: 6,062
Likes: 21,492
Liked 19,606 Times in 4,701 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter
I absolutely have complete disdain for policies that patronize the safety of myself and family just to appease corporate legal teams. Businesses want me to come onto their property to spend my hard-earned money, but simultaneously deny my right to self-defense by a simple policy sign- yeah, right. I am not changing my view. When I visit the theater, I will be polite, courteous, and armed, regardless of sign behind the pimple faced ticket taker.
|
Your attitude shown here on this thread is what gives concealed carry a bad rap in many circumstances. Keep your bluster to yourself or take it elsewhere.
__________________
_______________
Super Snooper
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 07:33 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,353
Likes: 5,459
Liked 2,780 Times in 1,263 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter
Exactly why I said LEGALLY. Most "policies" are not legally binding in themselves, with the only recourse being trespassing if remaining on property once asked to leave.
Very curious you posted your concurrence with the carrier's disregard of the Simeon policy.
|
I was attempting to maintain some semblance of the congeniality this forum usually displays.
I suppose the sledge hammer could have been [ You aren't REQUIRED to enter upon any of the places you mention - so what makes you believe that another persons property rights end when YOU find them inconvenient? ]
Frankly, I think most of those "no firearm" type signs are what the owner thinks is CYA.
__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media
Last edited by AlHunt; 07-22-2022 at 07:35 AM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 08:12 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: PRNJ
Posts: 6,746
Likes: 477
Liked 16,754 Times in 3,311 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector
Private Property Queens?
"No shirt, no shoes, no service" just ain't right either. I should be able to eat in the nude if I want to.
You have the right not to go to those places. They have a right to make the rules. I'm not anxious to see the rights of property owners eroded any further.
|
I would support a law which said that the owner of a business open to the public can prohibit open carry on its premises.
Whether the owner of a business open to the public can prohibit concealed carry is more nuanced.
__________________
Buy American
Vote Responsibly
Last edited by bushmaster1313; 07-22-2022 at 08:13 AM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 09:05 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 697
Likes: 292
Liked 1,307 Times in 394 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter
I absolutely have complete disdain for policies that patronize the safety of myself and family just to appease corporate legal teams. Businesses want me to come onto their property to spend my hard-earned money, but simultaneously deny my right to self-defense by a simple policy sign- yeah, right. I am not changing my view. When I visit the theater, I will be polite, courteous, and armed, regardless of sign behind the pimple faced ticket taker.
|
Most Americans respect private property and private property rights.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 09:12 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 697
Likes: 292
Liked 1,307 Times in 394 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlHunt
I was attempting to maintain some semblance of the congeniality this forum usually displays.
I suppose the sledge hammer could have been [ You aren't REQUIRED to enter upon any of the places you mention - so what makes you believe that another persons property rights end when YOU find them inconvenient? ]
Frankly, I think most of those "no firearm" type signs are what the owner thinks is CYA.
|
It is also fear born of ignorance and stupidity. They have swallowed the lies of "blood running in the street" proffered by the anti 2nd crowd.
After open carry passed while presenting to many businesses, chambers of commerce, and other merchant associations the vast majority didn't even know about CCW. When we explained to them it had been in force for 20 years and that people had no doubt carried on their premises they were shocked. With open carrying passing it brought attention to the issues and many then began to limit/prohibit carrying.
|
07-22-2022, 11:58 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 1,263
Liked 1,662 Times in 620 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pawngal
Your attitude shown here on this thread is what gives concealed carry a bad rap in many circumstances. Keep your bluster to yourself or take it elsewhere.
|
In reality, my "attitude" is extremely common among individuals who actually carry on a daily basis, and have so for decades. They may not chime-in on threads like for exactly the "muh property rits" tongue lashings that are administered by policy apologists. It's amazing what having some "near misses" on needing your defensive firearm in real life does for your willingness to play games with safety and security.
This is the "Concealed Carry and Self-Defense" section of a firearms focused forum with content being posted by a 15 year forum member. This IS the correct place for a robust and blustery discussion on where people carry. Not everyone needs to agree or have the same viewpoint. People need to make there own decisions for themselves.
Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-22-2022 at 12:33 PM.
|
07-22-2022, 12:06 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 1,263
Liked 1,662 Times in 620 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09
Most Americans respect private property and private property rights.
|
Just a dumb question- I suspect you research all policy statements and codes of conduct ahead of time before going to ANY establishment correct? If you enter a facility and discover they have a "no weapons policy" or "no outside food policy", do you drop everything and run back to your car to secure your carry gun/holster and that half-eaten pack of gummy bears that were in your cargo pocket? To do anything less would be hypocritical and not respectful.
Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-22-2022 at 12:21 PM.
|
07-22-2022, 12:30 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 1,263
Liked 1,662 Times in 620 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
I would support a law which said that the owner of a business open to the public can prohibit open carry on its premises.
Whether the owner of a business open to the public can prohibit concealed carry is more nuanced.
|
Exactly.
I understand the negative connotations of open carry and how a business might not want that issue distracting from their operations.
On the other hand, concealed carry has zero negative implications for the vast majority of businesses and facilities.
If a business or facility wants to legally limit concealed carry, there should be a mandatory listing of what security procedures they must follow- 100% screening for all entrants (customers, staff, management, ownership), mandatory ratio of required armed security present, full assumption of liability for victims of violent criminal conduct on property, and providing secure storage of all patron weapons while on-site. Anything less is patronizing tassel-loafered security theater.
Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-22-2022 at 12:38 PM.
|
07-22-2022, 12:58 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 476
Likes: 181
Liked 492 Times in 258 Posts
|
|
Last evening I saw a photo on line of the mall shooter covered in blood tagged dead on the mall floor. Some commented the photo was disrespectful to the shooters family. The gruesome photo if widely shown would do more to discourage other potential shooters than any sign or laws.
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 01:06 PM
|
Vendor
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas City area
Posts: 6,181
Likes: 54,365
Liked 13,589 Times in 4,281 Posts
|
|
The shooter didn't seem to care about respecting the victims or their families.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 01:18 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,154
Likes: 4,458
Liked 2,010 Times in 964 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09
Well, you can bluster, retort, pontificate all you want about your "rights", thankfully society and the courts disagree with you and protect private property rights, despite your disdain for them
|
You are correct, you have the right to refuse access. I also have the right to stop shopping there. However, in many states as in this case, placing a sign that says no firearms carries no weight. You must ask the person to leave and if not, then they are trespassing. If you don't ask them to leave or they leave when asked, then no crime has been committed.
Rosewood
Last edited by rosewood; 07-22-2022 at 01:20 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 01:30 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: South West Florida
Posts: 4,682
Likes: 5,952
Liked 11,984 Times in 2,992 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09
Most Americans respect private property and private property rights.
|
My right to protect myself and loved ones precludes any business’ right to deny me the ability to do so. Unless it’s a law and clearly stated.
I once had to stay at a Hilton property in the Miami area on business at the last minute. I noticed a sign on the glass doors entering the lobby with a picture of a gun and the red “no access” stripe through it. Nope, sorry. No need to let them know I’m armed and I’m sure not going to leave my gun in the truck overnight. I was actually a little offended by the fact that a hotelier would expect that no one would come onto the property armed.
If you are talking about someone’s home. I respect that and leave gun locked up unless they are aware and approve. I have gun buddies that come over and I go to their houses and it’s just understood that we’re carrying. Naturally, it’s a safer environment and not presumptuous to assume a shooter is going to come in and start shooting as happens in a public place like a mall.
__________________
USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 01:45 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 697
Likes: 292
Liked 1,307 Times in 394 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter
Just a dumb question- I suspect you research all policy statements and codes of conduct ahead of time before going to ANY establishment correct? If you enter a facility and discover they have a "no weapons policy" or "no outside food policy", do you drop everything and run back to your car to secure your carry gun/holster and that half-eaten pack of gummy bears that were in your cargo pocket? To do anything less would be hypocritical and not respectful.
|
Well I see that you're upset and resorting to childish retorts. Have fun.
|
07-22-2022, 01:53 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: NW of Austin Texas
Posts: 3,090
Likes: 1,351
Liked 4,938 Times in 1,730 Posts
|
|
Wow,this thread has turned into an argument about property rights.
I have not been to a local mall in some time but recollect a bit about the food court in the mall closest to home.
Cover and concealment are very limited and getting to it quickly will all depend on how close you are to it and your mental focus when things start to go south.
Being hidden doesn't guarantee you won't get hit.Cover may be more limited with the building support columns probably the best available if you cannot retreat.Naturally if you are a larger than normal person you may not fully fit behind a support column.
Distance is your friend and should be used.Advancing toward your adversary may not be a good move.
Spray and pray or aim each shot may depend on how much ammo you have.
You need to survive the odds that are all probably in the attacker's favor.
No matter how well you train the odds are the situation will be different than you imagined.
Staying focused and your marksmanship will win the day.
My on duty and off duty shootings ranged from 6 inches away to about 50 feet.
Even with all my special training and shooting ability I still got hit in the vest and a ricochet off my skull.
Stay Safe
__________________
NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 01:56 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,154
Likes: 4,458
Liked 2,010 Times in 964 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by StakeOut
Wow,this thread has turned into an argument about property rights.
I have not been to a local mall in some time but recollect a bit about the food court in the mall closest to home.
Cover and concealment are very limited and getting to it quickly will all depend on how close you are to it and your mental focus when things start to go south.
Being hidden doesn't guarantee you won't get hit.Cover may be more limited with the building support columns probably the best available if you cannot retreat.Naturally if you are a larger than normal person you may not fully fit behind a support column.
Distance is your friend and should be used.Advancing toward your adversary may not be a good move.
Spray and pray or aim each shot may depend on how much ammo you have.
You need to survive the odds that are all probably in the attacker's favor.
No matter how well you train the odds are the situation will be different than you imagined.
Staying focused and your marksmanship will win the day.
My on duty and off duty shootings ranged from 6 inches away to about 50 feet.
Even with all my special training and shooting ability I still got hit in the vest and a ricochet off my skull.
Stay Safe
|
Thanks for your service. Glad you had a vest on and have a hard head.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 02:26 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,147
Likes: 2,420
Liked 3,586 Times in 1,597 Posts
|
|
When I first got my permit to carry concealed in 1983,we were all told that the permit is solely between you and the state. This meant nobody needs to know that you are carry, and if done properly they shouldn't. Only the state outlines where you cannot go armed. Now this was liberal Boston which had a no guns allowed policy almost everywhere ,stores ,movie theaters, restaurants etc.
|
07-22-2022, 03:41 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 1,002
Liked 3,595 Times in 1,521 Posts
|
|
Individual states have decided through laws if "no firearms" signs put up by a business are backed by law. In many states, those signs have no legal standing. In Washington, they have no legal force.
I use the "Concealed Carry Laws by State" smartphone app when I travel so I know my rights and responsibilities, and reciprocity. I have both a Washington and Arizona permit.
According to my app, the No Firearms sign in Indiana means nothing. And to be honest, I'd rather get a slap on the wrist in court as long as I live through whatever caused me to make my firearm known.
Last edited by Racer X; 07-22-2022 at 04:00 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 05:39 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 1,263
Liked 1,662 Times in 620 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL-09
Well I see that you're upset and resorting to childish retorts. Have fun.
|
Interesting non-answer, but that's OK. It's easy to "talk the talk", but harder to "walk the walk" while focusing on subserviency to third-party policy signs.
Last edited by .455_Hunter; 07-22-2022 at 05:42 PM.
|
07-22-2022, 06:10 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 758
Likes: 100
Liked 710 Times in 348 Posts
|
|
Ten shots and eight hits in 15 seconds at 40 yards.
Sounds like his grandfather must have been a bullseye shooter.
Here's the Go-fund-me page set up to help the "good guy with a gun".
I would think it a kind gesture if all those who support carry might chip in a couple bucks to help make it a better outcome.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/elis-legal-fund
The mall praised Eli's actions and kept quiet about him breaking the rules, perhaps that would be a good thing to do more of in the online realm.
|
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2022, 08:09 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: SW PA
Posts: 509
Likes: 637
Liked 1,604 Times in 359 Posts
|
|
I normally try to stay out of these kind of threads as they tend to drift. This one hit closer to home than usual. My coworkers niece and her friend were the two girls that were wounded, along with another niece that ended up with bullet holes in her clothes and bags. Naturally she been upset all week, so we went after work for a beer yesterday. We discussed the situation along with the topic of gun control. She questioned me about assault rifle, concealed carry, tactics and vigilance. At the start she conversation she wanted to know why you need an AR/Ak. I did my best to explain the operation and history of semi rifles. At first she was at the remove all assault from the planet mind set(her words not mine). I explained that using a rifle in a mass shooting is the end result of a much deeper problem. We dove into how broken our society is broke homes, over medicated children and adolescents, no positive male role models, and the medias hero worship of these idiots. In the end she going to the range with me tomorrow to learn to shoot and work towards a ccw permit.
PS. Thanks for letting me share this. And maybe look for a go fund me for the victims as well.
__________________
Dave
Regulators mount up!
Last edited by dwh; 07-23-2022 at 10:53 PM.
|
The Following 11 Users Like Post:
|
AlHunt, bigmtnman, hyena, Kaarde, oldiegoldie, petepeterson, Racer X, rosewood, RoyM52, teletech, tom turner |
07-22-2022, 11:42 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 697
Likes: 292
Liked 1,307 Times in 394 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter
Interesting non-answer, but that's OK. It's easy to "talk the talk", but harder to "walk the walk" while focusing on subserviency to third-party policy signs.
|
Still the personal attacks... Very telling.
|
07-22-2022, 11:44 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 697
Likes: 292
Liked 1,307 Times in 394 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood
You are correct, you have the right to refuse access. I also have the right to stop shopping there. However, in many states as in this case, placing a sign that says no firearms carries no weight. You must ask the person to leave and if not, then they are trespassing. If you don't ask them to leave or they leave when asked, then no crime has been committed.
Rosewood
|
Yes, I am very familiar with the trespassing statutes.
|
07-23-2022, 04:12 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,612
Likes: 3,067
Liked 3,443 Times in 1,365 Posts
|
|
They just reported the first victim was also carrying concealed. He never had a chance was walking into the mens room as the shooter was walking out.
|
07-28-2022, 06:05 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 4,538
Likes: 2,862
Liked 9,119 Times in 3,214 Posts
|
|
For those who like Paul Harrell
and his reports, you might want to
look at his latest Youtube re: this
shooting.
__________________
Ubi Est Mea
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-28-2022, 12:29 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 240
Likes: 81
Liked 122 Times in 84 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eveled
They just reported the first victim was also carrying concealed. He never had a chance was walking into the mens room as the shooter was walking out.
|
this is what i read also. this is why having enough concealed carriers that the bad guy is always surrounded is a good idea. i wonder if there were others but they were too far away or too poorly equipped to deal with the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd
For those who like Paul Harrell
and his reports, you might want to
look at his latest Youtube re: this
shooting.
|
seeing a shooter of his caliber miss with the smaller guns is very sobering. i switched from a pocket pistol to a compact awhile back for similar reasons. i want the flexibility of being able to engage someone from further than the much cited common 7 yard range.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|