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  #51  
Old 08-04-2022, 07:42 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
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I think everyone reading this is aware of the law bam. But thanks.

No offence meant.
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  #52  
Old 08-05-2022, 10:26 AM
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WRMoore, I don’t think the effectiveness of a 1oz 12ga slug is a myth.
I never said that with good shot placement, the 12 ga slug isn't effective. The myth is that buckshot and rifled slugs are instant, never fail stoppers. I've seen security camera footage and other real world demonstrations that proved that. Even with good shot placement.

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  #53  
Old 08-05-2022, 10:51 AM
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Pistol caliber carbine as a home defense weapon is not that new a trend.

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Old 08-05-2022, 11:52 AM
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I never said that with good shot placement, the 12 ga slug isn't effective. The myth is that buckshot and rifled slugs are instant, never fail stoppers. I've seen security camera footage and other real world demonstrations that proved that. Even with good shot placement.
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  #55  
Old 08-05-2022, 12:02 PM
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Regardless of what we all believe regarding home defense the main thing is reliability. As it came from the factory my carbine (as well as those of many others) was NOT reliable. Just do a search on PC stovepipes. Many others besides myself had/have this problem. Unfortunately, there is not one confirmed "fix" with everyone seemingly finding different causes. Do not rely on any PC carbine until you are absolutely certain it is reliable. There are many who have zero issues. Just make sure your's is one of those. My stovepipes were a pain to clear and required dropping the mag, clearing the spent case and reinserting the mag. Not what you want to be doing under those conditions.
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  #56  
Old 08-05-2022, 09:01 PM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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I can see where a pistol grip would allow for better one hand operation.
And I presume everyone is thinking of a semiauto.

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  #57  
Old 08-06-2022, 07:43 PM
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Back up a few steps. I have pointed this out before, but if you having to use a firearm for home defense you have not hardened the target enough. Your home should not be welcoming to the uninvited.. How high is your fence? Anything less than 6' is inadequate. If you have an HOA restriction or other such BS, move. Got floodlights? (Timer or motion, take your pick; there are pros and cons to each.) Got a dog or dogs? I like big protective dogs, preferable a pair. (I'm prone to the Molossers, but others have had good success with GSDs, Belgian and Dutch Sheperds, Schnauzers and all sorts of protective breeds, and even most small dogs will give you a warning that really helps.) Anyone who tries to come in when there is a Rottweiler, Boerboel, etc. barking at them is almost certainly very dangerous. Are your doors ever unlocked except to go through them? While a few folks with specific medical problems might have different needs, as a rule there is no excuse for an unlocked door at home, at work, or in your car.

At our house, the invited are provided with calling instructions, and we have to go out and let them in. There is no measurable risk of accidental entry, drunk neighbors, etc. (The gates in the fence are padlocked.) Before we improved the fencing, I never opened the door to answer it - I yelled through it. People don't like it? Tough. Go cry somewhere else. Those feelings are silly and I don't care.

Then: firearms. What do you have and shoot well? If you shoot a 6" K38 with SWC well, use it. Long guns are easier to shoot well, but may be unwieldy. They are also LOUD. If you can have a can, do so. As a rule, if you have a barrel longer than the legal minimum, you are making an error. The research data is clear and has been out there a while - a 5.56X45 carbine (AR) with duty ammo is far less likely to penetrate your walls than a pistol with duty ammo, which likely includes the topic here, a PCC. HITTING your target is a bigger issue - missing is a bigger factor than over-penetration, and makes the risk of penetrating walls greater. Of course, your neighborhood matters - urban density, or a condo, is a very different situation than a rural residence.

I have different firearms accessible. What's CLOSE may be better than what is perfect. Red dot sights help - I have one on my AR, on my PCC, on my shotgun and a couple of pistols. All of them are loaded with ammo that has been researched and proven by experts like Dr. Roberts.
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Last edited by Doug M.; 08-07-2022 at 06:34 PM. Reason: I am not able to type or proofread
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  #58  
Old 08-06-2022, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpg View Post
I’d stay away from shotgun pistols and shotguns without a butt stock.

They’re very hard to shoot well and, in the case of 410 pistols, ineffective beyond about 6 feet (unless you’re shooting a snake at your feet).
Personally, I don't relish cleaning flesh from my walls or deafness.

I don't care what you use, as long as it can sufficiently penetrate a target and you've got a suppressor mounted on it.

I perceive your target won't be much beyond the distance quoted here. You don't NEED that much. That's why I also use subsonic ammunition that will tumble and penetrate.



Here's a link to my experiment for that:

My PS90 SBR/suppressor experience Part One - Testing SB193 Ammunition - YouTube

Here's my experiment with my Governor:

Smith & Wesson Governor - A Sampling of 410 Defensive Rounds - YouTube
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  #59  
Old 08-07-2022, 12:19 AM
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This gets into a tactics discussion. I resolved long ago that "searching the house for the bump in the night" is a fool's errand. That's what the cops are for. You set a position that is your defense area and do not let anyone violate it without them getting perforated. For me, that's the stairway leading to the second floor where the bedrooms are. This eliminates the issue of "the barrel is too long to walk around the house with it".
Borderboss, I understnad this position and in certain circumstances that would be my plan too. But do you assume your defensive perimeter and lie in wait all night every time "something goes bump in the night?" You could lose a lot of sleep that way. Or are you telling me that you never hear anything that goes bump in the night? And no spouse with her elbow in your ribs telling you to go check it out? If I really thought I had an armed intruder in the house, I wouldn't go clearing rooms either. But when my wife think I need to go on patrol, and I don't really expect to find anything, I do like to tote a handgun just in case.
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  #60  
Old 08-07-2022, 12:38 AM
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Help me understand why you (plural) would go out and look for the cause of something that goes bump in the night when, in fact, you could get ambushed?

Wouldn't it be more prudent to hunker down?
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  #61  
Old 08-07-2022, 08:19 AM
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Back up a few steps. I have pointed this out before, but if you having to use a firearm for home defense you have no hardened the target enough. Your home should not be welcoming to the uninvited.. How high is your fence? Anything less than 6' is inadequate.

<snipped a lot of stuff, most of which I agree with>
The problem I see with a 6' fence and such obvious security is that you look like you have something worth stealing.

My preference is for a few hundred feet of wide open spaces in all directions around the house and eliminating shrubbery and/or other spots a person could hide once the cross the open field.

If your neighbors have cooler stuff than you sitting around their place (ATVs, boats, whatever), an opportunistic thief is going to go there. My neighbors have way cooler stuff than me ...

And for the love of Pete ... don't post on social media that you're off camping for the weekend! Again, my neighbors... (see my tagline - if I know they've posted it, everybody knows)

Hopefully, neither of us will have to test our theory.
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2022, 10:46 AM
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Help me understand why you (plural) would go out and look for the cause of something that goes bump in the night when, in fact, you could get ambushed?

Wouldn't it be more prudent to hunker down?
That's situational and can vary depending upon what your house layout is, how many people live there and especially where all the bedrooms are. If all the bedrooms are, say upstairs, you may want to move to a position where you control the stairs. That would also let you look/listen for additional information, like that the noise was the kids and/or their friends raiding the fridge or maybe the pets were at play. Be patient.

Searching buildings for intruders-safely- is time consuming and not even cops get it right all the time. My late mother in law called the LLEA when she came home and found the house had been broken into. They searched the house, took a report and left. When she went to hang up her coat in the hall closet, she noticed a pair of men's shoes that didn't belong there. Second trip the LLEA found the guy hiding behind the coats and standing in the shoes. That aside, if you call the cops every time you hear a bump in the night, pretty soon they might not show up when you desperately need them. If you do search, don't do it in the dark with a flashlight, turn the lights on. Do have the flashlight for those closets/false ceilings.

Finally, the very carefully worded statements by ammunition manufacturers about relative penetration of defensive/duty pistol ammo and rifle ammo seem to refer to tissue penetration. It may, or may not, be true of building material, most drywall interior walls especially. Very limited testing showed several common expanding .223 bullets went right through a simulated interior wall intact and unexpanded.

Last edited by WR Moore; 08-07-2022 at 10:50 AM.
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  #63  
Old 08-07-2022, 02:23 PM
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Help me understand why you (plural) would go out and look for the cause of something that goes bump in the night when, in fact, you could get ambushed?

Wouldn't it be more prudent to hunker down?
If your children are sleeping down the hall when something goes bump in the night, you're not going to hunker down in place.
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  #64  
Old 08-07-2022, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 1sailor View Post
Regardless of what we all believe regarding home defense the main thing is reliability. As it came from the factory my carbine (as well as those of many others) was NOT reliable. Just do a search on PC stovepipes. Many others besides myself had/have this problem. Unfortunately, there is not one confirmed "fix" with everyone seemingly finding different causes. Do not rely on any PC carbine until you are absolutely certain it is reliable. There are many who have zero issues. Just make sure your's is one of those. My stovepipes were a pain to clear and required dropping the mag, clearing the spent case and reinserting the mag. Not what you want to be doing under those conditions.
I’ve never been a fan of the Ruger PC Carbine, but I have three Colt pattern magazine AR-15 based 9mm carbines and all of them are very reliable.

The 16” carbine at the top started out as a PSA 9mm carbine but the upper and barrel were totally unsatisfactory. I have them put in the garage somewhere but what is in this is a RRA dedicated 9mm upper and a 16” ballistic advantage barrel.

The pistol on the bottom is a 10” RRA AR-9.

In my experience reliability in a blow black 9mm AR-15 isn’t a mystery. It’s all about bolt and buffer weight.

I use heavy 9 to 11 ounce buffers to reduce the cyclic rate, with sliding tungsten weights to eliminate bolt bounce. Both of mine also have weighted bolts that put the bolt weight at 16 oz, and a total bolt and buffer weight of 25 ounces and 27 ounces respectively?

I also use $1 worth of quarters or a spacer to reduce slide over run, but you can also use an extended length buffer.

Those heavy bolt and buffer weights won’t please some of the tactical shooting folks as it does reduce cyclic rate and increases both the total firearm weight as well as the reciprocating weight. But I’m also shooting 9mm +P self defense loads, not minor power factor loads looking for minimum recoil and minimum split times.

With the heavier bolt and buffer weights my 9mm ARs are very reliable with +P hollow point loads, as well as standard pressure FMJs, won’t stove pipe, and don’t break bolt stops.



My Colt 6450 is box stock and it has also been very reliable with hollow points and FMJs. Colt has a weighted bolt right at 16 ounces and a 7 oz bolt for a total bolt/buffer weight of 23 ounces.



I also have an MKE manufactured semi auto MP5, and it’s also extremely reliable with hollow points, provided I use HK mags. (The MKE mags are 100% reliable with FMJs but suffer last round failure to feeds with hollow points.)



I also have a 9mm UZI carbine. It struggles a bit with some hollow point designs but is very reliable with FMJs, provided you have proper clearance (0.010”- 0.015”) between the top cover and the top of the bolt (check it with a feeler gauge through the ejection port). UZI top covers can be slightly bent if the firearm is dropped, so it’s a measurement you should check on a regular basis.

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Old 08-07-2022, 02:43 PM
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Don't think you can go wrong with either one, a PCC or a defense shotgun with a stock, not a long-barreled hunting shotgun. My Diamondback AR9 pistol has been flawless, even with a Promag 50 round drum. but personally i think a load of 00 buck would stop any assault rather quick. also the type of round would have to be considered on whom and how many you have in the house. the last thing you want to do is go through a wall and hit a family member in the next room.
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  #66  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
The problem I see with a 6' fence and such obvious security is that you look like you have something worth stealing.
*
There is that, but I am looking at a far more important consideration. With a fence and locked gates, anyone who crosses them is already committing a crime. The trespass posting consistent with WA law was ignored, and I do not want people at my door unless invited (which is most of the time a pizza driver).

I have spent a lot of time in a courtroom. I look at this as a proof issue for both criminal and civil litigation. It is the dogs' yard, and if they are out in it (not often, but can happen) and someone gets chomped on, it is as a matter of law their fault. If someone crosses the fence and tried to enter the (locked) doors, they are well into criminal territory. There is no question about it being an accident by a drunk college kid who is at the wrong house.

Even if we end up with slightly more rural property after I retire and we move, there will be fencing. I want people to feel very uncomfortable. I want my dogs safe and comfortable.
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Old 08-07-2022, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
I’ve never been a fan of the Ruger PC Carbine, but I have three Colt pattern magazine AR-15 based 9mm carbines and all of them are very reliable.

The 16” carbine at the top started out as a PSA 9mm carbine but the upper and barrel were totally unsatisfactory. I have them put in the garage somewhere but what is in this is a RRA dedicated 9mm upper and a 16” ballistic advantage barrel.

The pistol on the bottom is a 10” RRA AR-9.

In my experience reliability in a blow black 9mm AR-15 isn’t a mystery. It’s all about bolt and buffer weight.

I use heavy 9 to 11 ounce buffers to reduce the cyclic rate, with sliding tungsten weights to eliminate bolt bounce. Both of mine also have weighted bolts that put the bolt weight at 16 oz, and a total bolt and buffer weight of 25 ounces and 27 ounces respectively?

I also use $1 worth of quarters or a spacer to reduce slide over run, but you can also use an extended length buffer.

Those heavy bolt and buffer weights won’t please some of the tactical shooting folks as it does reduce cyclic rate and increases both the total firearm weight as well as the reciprocating weight. But I’m also shooting 9mm +P self defense loads, not minor power factor loads looking for minimum recoil and minimum split times.

With the heavier bolt and buffer weights my 9mm ARs are very reliable with +P hollow point loads, as well as standard pressure FMJs, won’t stove pipe, and don’t break bolt stops.



My Colt 6450 is box stock and it has also been very reliable with hollow points and FMJs. Colt has a weighted bolt right at 16 ounces and a 7 oz bolt for a total bolt/buffer weight of 23 ounces.



I also have an MKE manufactured semi auto MP5, and it’s also extremely reliable with hollow points, provided I use HK mags. (The MKE mags are 100% reliable with FMJs but suffer last round failure to feeds with hollow points.)



I also have a 9mm UZI carbine. It struggles a bit with some hollow point designs but is very reliable with FMJs, provided you have proper clearance (0.010”- 0.015”) between the top cover and the top of the bolt (check it with a feeler gauge through the ejection port). UZI top covers can be slightly bent if the firearm is dropped, so it’s a measurement you should check on a regular basis.

Is that an IWI or other Israeli-manufactured Uzi?
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  #68  
Old 08-08-2022, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
*
There is that, but I am looking at a far more important consideration. With a fence and locked gates, anyone who crosses them is already committing a crime. The trespass posting consistent with WA law was ignored, and I do not want people at my door unless invited (which is most of the time a pizza driver).

I have spent a lot of time in a courtroom. I look at this as a proof issue for both criminal and civil litigation. It is the dogs' yard, and if they are out in it (not often, but can happen) and someone gets chomped on, it is as a matter of law their fault. If someone crosses the fence and tried to enter the (locked) doors, they are well into criminal territory. There is no question about it being an accident by a drunk college kid who is at the wrong house.

Even if we end up with slightly more rural property after I retire and we move, there will be fencing. I want people to feel very uncomfortable. I want my dogs safe and comfortable.
I’m in full agreement.

I have a six foot fence. I live in close proximity to others. Before the fence anyone could and did walk through my yard.

My dog can hear people climb the fence well before I do. I know this because he goes ballistic when a raccoon climbs the fence.

If you’re inside my fence without an invitation you’re going to be confronted rather rudely. With my hand in my pocket where a 357 resides.
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Old 08-08-2022, 09:33 AM
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Is that an IWI or other Israeli-manufactured Uzi?
It’s a CAI, but it’s had some work done to it, including a new top cover with an integrated mount for the Burris FF III. I added the old school wood stock. Switching to the wood stock is bit tricky as it requires some modification to the attachment hardware to make it legal.

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Old 08-08-2022, 09:47 AM
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Neat UZI. I have several .45 pcc in my safe but would choose a da .38 or .45 revolver and a separate tactical light unless my plan was to barricade in a room, then I’d want my 20ga M12. Don’t like a two handed weapon in the confines of my house. Theres a reason cops carried wheelguns for so long.
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Old 08-08-2022, 10:41 AM
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Theres a reason cops carried wheelguns for so long.
Ya, you can holster them when you don't need them or need to perform some other activity

And there's a reason we started seeing lots of PCCs (MP5s) and other long guns (AR/SBRs) on the streets after 911 with static police officers guarding buildings and other sensitive sites.

IMHO it's really just a matter of having the "Right tool" for the job!!!!


Light, Phone , gun and again IMO a suppressor for the gun you have!
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:54 PM
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IMHO too much emphasis on technology, not enough on training, tactics, battle plans, etc. Several of the more publicized cases of a home defender dealing with an invasion-the Sarah McKinley case, e.g. have involved assailants trying to batter down the front door. And if I had children, elderly relatives living with me I would not hunker down, too passive an approach, e.g.
A light-how about something incredibly bright to blind an invader?
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Old 08-08-2022, 07:35 PM
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The light idea sounds good in theory and might work in certain circumstances. But, the problem is that most houses have light colored walls and they reflect light. That can allow them to see you anyway. Best advice? Turn the cotton picking lights on.
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:04 AM
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Agree with BB57.
Finally someone talks about blowing your ear drums out.
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Old 08-09-2022, 10:23 AM
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Peltor Tactical Pro muffs (MT15H7F SV) can take care of both the muzzle blast and, for those of us with hearing issues, get you better hearing than you originally had.

Lots cheaper and less cumbersome than a "can", even if it's not as cool.
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Old 08-10-2022, 06:08 AM
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Agree with BB57.
Finally someone talks about blowing your ear drums out.
I have no experience with pistol calibers in these barrel lengths, so I didn't chime in here.

But I do have experience with 5.56 in a 7.5" barrel indoors without hearing protection. It's like someone walked up behind you and clapped both ears HARD. Convinced me completely that it's an extremely poor choice for a middle of the night gun. My ears rang for hours.

I have an attached shed I can step out into and fire into an outdoor backstop. I use it to check function in the winter months and rainy days. Forgot to put the hearing protection on.
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Old 08-10-2022, 07:00 AM
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:01 PM
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I have a Ruger PCC. It chronograph's higher velocities than my CZ 75 with AA2, Herco, Red Dot, Unique, Silhuette and Power Pistol.
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Old 08-10-2022, 05:15 PM
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I recall articles saying a PCC was a good choice for an area, a jurisdiction where handguns were hard to obtain. And getting a "cheapo"-a Hi-Point, e.g.-they have a reputation for reliability and if it is taken as "evidence" you won't be "Singing the Blues". Then there is the intimidation factor of a long gun barrel pressed against the belly of the invader.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:17 AM
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Then there is the intimidation factor of a long gun barrel pressed against the belly of the invader.
And no "out-of-battery" worries with its fixed barrel.

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Old 08-11-2022, 08:58 AM
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I have a Ruger PCC. It chronograph's higher velocities than my CZ 75 with AA2, Herco, Red Dot, Unique, Silhuette and Power Pistol.
I get 1200 fps with 115 gr XTPs in a 4” pistol with a max load of Power pistol. That increases to 1440 fps in my MP5 and to 1525 fps in my 16” Colt 6450.

The XTPs have wide velocity envelops as they mushroom and once they reach the velocity needed to open up they penetrate within the FBI’s 12-18” limits and more velocity just causes them to start sooner and mushroom more, which keeps the penetration within limits at the higher velocities.

——

Similarly, with a 124 gr Sig V-Crown and a max load of Power Pistol I get 1030 fps from my 3.1” Kimber Micro 9, 1120 fps from my 4” Kimber Pro Carry, and 1350 fps from my MP5.

The Sig V-Crown impressed me as it’s a more modern design with more aggressive star shaped expansion as it also exhibits a very wide velocity envelope without over or under penetrating. This shows the expansion at 1030 fps, 1120 fps and 1350 fps, with all of them penetrating 14-16”.



Either way, provided you are getting good hollow point performance, 9mm PCC with a 16” will deliver .357 Magnum revolver performance with a good load.
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Old 08-11-2022, 09:17 AM
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A carbine is a lot easier to put a hit on a target than a handgun, especially if one is under duress. The drawback is that it (or any long gun) isn't easy to manipulate and handle in a home. It is also a lot harder to keep within easy reach for emergencies while keeping it out of the hands of those who shouldn't have access, i.e. kids.
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Old 08-11-2022, 09:20 AM
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The light idea sounds good in theory and might work in certain circumstances. But, the problem is that most houses have light colored walls and they reflect light. That can allow them to see you anyway. Best advice? Turn the cotton picking lights on.
It’s about tactics and tactical advantage in a given situation.

I know my home really well, and if I’m awoken in the middle of the night I have the advantages of:
- light adapted eyes that the intruder doesn’t, given the streetlights, outside lights and his probable use of a flashlight; and
- being able to navigate through my house in the dark knowing what is and isn’t normal.

That means if I hear someone breaking in, those two major advantages in the dark allow me at least a few more seconds to assess the situation.

At that point, I can use a weapon mounted light or a technique like the Harries technique to quickly flash the target using a momentary switch on the light to identify the target before I shoot it.

I don’t hold with the “so bright it blinds your assailant” theory as if he’s intent on shooting at you you better also be holding the light out away from you and be moving or he’ll just point shoot at the light with a high probability of hitting you. Even if he doesn’t the glare walls will cost you your night adapted eyes advantage, and partly so even if you close one eye.

I also use night sights, and as such they are already aligned on the target. The light just serves to identify the target to ensure it’s really an intruder and not an errant teenager coming home after sneaking out, or a daughter’s idiot boyfriend thinking that dropping by in the middle of the night was a good idea.

If you don’t have night sights a not over the top light can be left on when you decide to shoot and the illuminated target gives you adequate backlighting of the sights to make an accurate shot. Assuming you properly learned the basics, and have shot enough to develop a good, consistent grip the sights will already be aligned with each other and the light just lets you ensure the front sight is center of mass. It’s a couple tenths of a second slower, but will greatly increase the probability of a first round hit.

——

In contrast, with an assailant already in the house, as soon as I turn on the lights, I lose those night adapted eye and navigational advantages, with the added disadvantage of being temporarily light blinded when he probably isn’t.

—-

Now…if he’s still outside rattling door knobs or whatever, it’s a different scenario. In that case there is a argument that turning on the lights will clearly signal that the household is awake and any advantage of stealth or surprise has been lost.
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Old 08-11-2022, 12:52 PM
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My "ideal" home defense weapon might be an HKMP5SD - I had a chance to handle one - and living in TX the only obstacle (besides the Federal paperwork) is my budget; decent pre-86 versions cost as much as a new car. (a NICE new car)

Back to reality. Instead of a PCC, a braced pistol like a CMMG Banshee would seem to have a lot of virtues - more compact than a PCC yet with many of the same ergonomic advantages, and the opportunity to add a suppressor and still have a compact firearm you can shoulder. The only rub is what, if any, regulatory changes will come along - the BATmen are rumored to be planning some new interpretation of the law regarding braced pistols this coming December.

I personally don't have a lot of interest in a full size PCC - if it's as big as a rifle, I want a rifle round - but that's just my preference. If a PCC appeals to you, I don't see any problem with it so long as its reliable and you shoot it well. And I doubt that a couple of hundred feet per second extra velocity from a 16" barrel will cause bullet failure from the PREMIUM loads of any of the major ammo makers.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:12 PM
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Do you guys really call the cops whenever you hear a noise in the house? Don’t they get tired of it?

I have a big house and a big dog. I’m not gonna be sneaking around my house like a fat old ninja in the dark.

If someone enters mi casa after visiting hours there will be plenty of barking and biting and screaming. No need for stealth at that point.

I will alight from my slumber, turn on the lights, and assess.

If necessary, I will aim above the dog and let fly.

I understand some poor souls can’t/won’t/don’t have dogs. Their plan must vary.
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Old 08-11-2022, 09:02 PM
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My "ideal" home defense weapon might be an HKMP5SD - I had a chance to handle one - and living in TX the only obstacle (besides the Federal paperwork) is my budget; decent pre-86 versions cost as much as a new car. (a NICE new car)

Back to reality. Instead of a PCC, a braced pistol like a CMMG Banshee would seem to have a lot of virtues - more compact than a PCC yet with many of the same ergonomic advantages, and the opportunity to add a suppressor and still have a compact firearm you can shoulder. The only rub is what, if any, regulatory changes will come along - the BATmen are rumored to be planning some new interpretation of the law regarding braced pistols this coming December.

I personally don't have a lot of interest in a full size PCC - if it's as big as a rifle, I want a rifle round - but that's just my preference. If a PCC appeals to you, I don't see any problem with it so long as its reliable and you shoot it well. And I doubt that a couple of hundred feet per second extra velocity from a 16" barrel will cause bullet failure from the PREMIUM loads of any of the major ammo makers.
I like your post with a caveat for the last paragraph.

*Some* of the older and or less expensive hollow point designs, like the Federal Hi Shok, the Remington white box hollow points etc that don’t always expand well at pistol velocities do pretty good at 8” MP5 velocities.

For example the 124 gr Sierra JHP bullet looks a lot like the Sig V crown except for the shape of the bottom of the hollow point cavity. It makes a big difference and they just don’t expand at normal 4” pistol velocities and badly over penetrate, but they are reasonably priced.




On the other hand in my MP5 they penetrated about 16-18” and gave satisfying mushroom like expansion very similar to the Hornady XTP:




———


That’s not the case with all inexpensive options however. I tried some 124 gr 9mm Hybrid hollow points from Berry’s and found they had an *extremely* narrow velocity range where they expanded, didn’t fragment and delivered penetration in the 12-18” range in 10% gelatin.

In my 3.1” Micro 9 at around 1050 fps they slightly over penetrated at 19”, and failed to expand. That was disappointing as Inhad high hopes for them as a short barrel load:







In my 4” Kimber Pro Carry at 1121 and 1133 fps they slightly under penetrated, and while expansion was impressive, they were also starting to fragment, one barely hanging together and the other already fragmented but with all the bits still in close formation.



In my MP5 at 1350 fps they fragmented almost on impact and while the wound channels were impressive, most were also impressively short, with the petals departing the rather small remaining core within about the first 6”.

So…not a PDW or PCC option unless it is loaded way down to produce about 1100 fps at the muzzle.

But I suspect at a very close to 1100 fps it might perform really well in a pistol. But the load would need to produce a velocity that was both optimum in a particular pistol, and be very consistent. And you’d need to gel test it to make sure it delivers both the desired expansion and penetration, or at least chronograph a fair sized sample to ensure a low SD and velocity right around 1100 fps.

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Old 08-11-2022, 09:45 PM
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There are pros and cons. The biggest downside of a short barrel AR-15 in .223 is the noise - about 156 dB, and in an enclosed space that’s permanent hearing loss level of damage

In comparison I’ve measured the noise level of my 9mm AR-15 and it’s just 122 dB at the ear. That’s down in suppressed AR-15 .223 territory.

On the other hand, a M193 style 55 gr FMJ will tumble and fragment at short range from a 16” barrel and is very effective. It’s also less likeLy to exit the house of you miss. In contrast a 9mm will pass through a couple interior walls and an exterior wall.

Then again, the flash with a 9mm carbine is a total non issue. That’s not the car with a 16” .223.
This is but TWO of such postings here on this thread. I came aboard to chastise us all, as a community, for continuing to post this myth, LOL.

ALL of what we shoot is over-pentrative against common interior walls. The best you could hope for is that your 'miss' would impact some conduit, an electrical box, or a wall stud to help slow it down and/or deviate its travel..

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Old 08-11-2022, 11:08 PM
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Do you guys really call the cops whenever you hear a noise in the house? Don’t they get tired of it?

I have a big house and a big dog. I’m not gonna be sneaking around my house like a fat old ninja in the dark.

If someone enters mi casa after visiting hours there will be plenty of barking and biting and screaming. No need for stealth at that point.

I will alight from my slumber, turn on the lights, and assess.

If necessary, I will aim above the dog and let fly.

I understand some poor souls can’t/won’t/don’t have dogs. Their plan must vary.
Now that's a guard dog.
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:10 AM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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5.56 doesn't qualify as a Pistol Caliber Cartridge IMHO.
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Old 08-12-2022, 09:27 AM
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This is but TWO of such postings here on this thread. I came aboard to chastise us all, as a community, for continuing to post this myth, LOL.

ALL of what we shoot is over-pentrative against common interior walls. The best you could hope for is that your 'miss' would impact some conduit, an electrical box, or a wall stud to help slow it down and/or deviate its travel..

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Experimental conditions make a big difference. I’ve seen that box of truth article before and there are problems with their methodology.

They use close spacing of the dry wall for all of their layers. With angular momentum the time factor becomes very important. They don’t see tumbling until the sixth layer of drywall as it takes time for the bullet to destabilize and tumble.

Space those first two layers 2 3/4” apart and the next two layers
10-12 feet apart, as is the case in a residential structure, and you’ll see tumbling and fragmentation by the third layer.

In their experiment, by the time a 55 gr FMJ (from a carbine in their case) penetrates 5 layers of dry wall and begins to tumble, its speed is below the fragmentation threshold. That’s not the case with after penetrating 2 layers of drywall.

That’s aggravated by their use of 5/8” drywall used in commercial and firewall structures, rather than the 3/8” and 1/2” drywall used in residential structures.

They are not as bad as the ballistics by the inch folks, but they share a lot of the same flaws when it comes to poor experimental design and consequently poor validity.
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:52 PM
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Got this Diamondback pistol a while back and have it set up for home use. i don't use the drum for home, drum is a range toy but it does work. the red dot and back up sights are in at 10 yards.





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Old 08-12-2022, 01:54 PM
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Regardless of what we all believe regarding home defense the main thing is reliability. As it came from the factory my carbine (as well as those of many others) was NOT reliable. Just do a search on PC stovepipes. Many others besides myself had/have this problem. Unfortunately, there is not one confirmed "fix" with everyone seemingly finding different causes. Do not rely on any PC carbine until you are absolutely certain it is reliable. There are many who have zero issues. Just make sure your's is one of those. My stovepipes were a pain to clear and required dropping the mag, clearing the spent case and reinserting the mag. Not what you want to be doing under those conditions.

I would trust this one or it's big sister as much as any gun I have. It's pretty quiet too, but God forbid I ever had to defend my home...I'd sure hate for either to be threw in a police evidence locker till I got them back.

Plus, if I ended up in court. I think a jury may question using or even having such a gun. A good old pump shotgun would seem like a better choice.

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Old 08-12-2022, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Do you guys really call the cops whenever you hear a noise in the house? Don’t they get tired of it?

I have a big house and a big dog. I’m not gonna be sneaking around my house like a fat old ninja in the dark.

If someone enters mi casa after visiting hours there will be plenty of barking and biting and screaming. No need for stealth at that point.

I will alight from my slumber, turn on the lights, and assess.

If necessary, I will aim above the dog and let fly.

I understand some poor souls can’t/won’t/don’t have dogs. Their plan must vary.
That cracks me up ^^^^^
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Old 08-12-2022, 02:20 PM
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I don’t have a dog. Other than aiming high, my plan is the same . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Do you guys really call the cops whenever you hear a noise in the house? Don’t they get tired of it?

I have a big house and a big dog. I’m not gonna be sneaking around my house like a fat old ninja in the dark.

If someone enters mi casa after visiting hours there will be plenty of barking and biting and screaming. No need for stealth at that point.

I will alight from my slumber, turn on the lights, and assess.

If necessary, I will aim above the dog and let fly.

I understand some poor souls can’t/won’t/don’t have dogs. Their plan must vary.
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Old 08-12-2022, 04:08 PM
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Most of these home defense things happen at night........when it's dark.

Those advocating for the 12 gauge.......have you ever touched one off in the house in the dark?

Good God........does being deaf and blind sound like a good thing in a gunfight?

You need a short barrel and that just increases the blast and flash.

No way would I use one. Just TOO much.

The PC Carbine in 9mm seems to me to be better.

Not just quieter than the shotgun, but quieter with less flash than the 9mm pistol.

It also has increased power over the 9mm pistol.

But even with this improvement you will still be partially blinded by flash and somewhat deafened by blast.

If you haven't actually done this you are probably unaware that your room will be filled with gunsmoke, your laser or flashlight will be glaring or useless due to reflecting off smoke and your smoke alarms will be sounding to increase the insanity.

Some have mentioned the .22 LR.......and it ain't a bad choice.

See.......almost all of your thugs will turn tail and run at the sound of any shot.......even a .22. The last thing they want is to have to go to a hospital where they will be reported and surely have to chat with cops.

They will also probably try to cover their retreat with an extensive burst of gunfire if they have a working gun.

You want to have a large piece of heavy wooden furniture between you and them when you fire your first shot......and maybe get flat on the floor.
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Old 08-12-2022, 04:28 PM
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This is the only PCC I own. I can clear steel plates with it faster and farther then I can with a pistol. I would imagine it would serve well in a HD application.

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Old 08-12-2022, 04:50 PM
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Really nice
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Old 08-14-2022, 06:30 PM
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Not taking on overall target hardening in this post .

IF your plan calls for a long gun for HD , either primary or an additional option, no reason to not consider a PCC .

If 9mm or .45acp is adaquate from pistol , it's at least as good from carbine .

With a full stock better accuracy than from pistol , particularly with any family members who are not ace pistol shooters .

I've fired 5.56 from 10.5 inch , outdoors with ear pro , and my first thought id that I wanted double ear protection . By comparison , PCC is very modest muzzle blast .

My preference is 12ga buckshot , but that's just me . I would not feel unarmed with 9mm AR .
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:16 PM
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After looking at what many are considering to be their minimum required protection, I will say one thing. I am sure glad I decided years ago to move me and my family out of the "big city". You can't completely eliminate trouble from your life, but you can put a little distance between you and it. I think avoidance is probably as effective as any other defense. I might get knocked for saying that but when I read all the crazy stuff in the news, I'm glad I'm here and not there.
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Old 08-15-2022, 07:18 AM
sotexas sotexas is offline
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My home defense currently consists of a Glock 31 (357 Sig) with a light and a Marlin 1894c .44mag with a Vortex Red Dot and Walkers Razor
ear muffs. The wife and I plan to call 911 and stay in the room. If the attempt would occur during waking hours whatever I am carrying would be included
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