I was a bit puzzled by the spacing of the test "walls" as cited above so I checked the link in the post above it. The folks at Box O Truth used a test fixture they'd done for the very, very old practice of shooting into pine boards to test "power"/penetration. Probably for the sake of convenience. Every interior residential wall I've ever seen has the interior wall panels 3.5 inchs apart. The Mythbusters segment on this did too.

If you're fixing to do your own penetration tests, you'll need one 2x4 8 feet long and several common, 1/2 inch, 2'x2' drywall repair squares. Some deck/drywall screws too. Create a box the squares can be screwed to for simulation of 1 interior wall. If you're gonna do multiple walls, do one box for each wall. I you're gonna check bullet condition/orientation, place a target on the other side of the "wall". You can even do angled impacts. If there are range Chads/Karens, the gypsum is good for the grass.

The only thing I found to stop in one wall was a .177 pellet at about 300 f/s. The only thing I found to destabilize in one wall was the Barnes RRLP 55 grv bullet (very long for caliber), but I expect a sideways bullet at a signifcant fraction of 2900 f/s is still gonna hurt. No conventional bullet showed expansion or destabilized in one wall. I didn't feel like setting up to do multiple walls, I was bascially creating a demonstration of what happens if you don't hit your threat.

This thing will stop anyone in their tracks ( just as it has on the battle field through 4 wars ).

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John

I suppose if it hits them between the eyes.

The 110gr. 30 Carbine bullet does somewhere between 1900-2000 fps out of an 18" barrel. Soviet military issue 7.62x25 claims an 85 grain bullet at 1650 fps from a PPS-43. (The Bulgarian and East German issue was reputedly a little hotter.)

The interwebs tell me that 7.62x25 is commonly considered a "hot round" while .30 Carbine is often considered "weak".

Seems to me they are both pretty close to being in the same ball park.

Both will also penetrate Class IIIA body armor as will .22 WMR, .22 TCM and 5.7x28mm.

At 25 grains heavier and 400 FPS faster........the .30 Carbine is a lot more powerful.

But though it is more powerful.......remember that the .30 Carbine was not highly regarded as a man-stopper.

It was generally considered to be weak.........and the Rusky round is weaker.

But they will both drop a man in his tracks with a hit to the brain or spine.

I own one and I'll use it to defend home and family if needed.

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Endeavor to persevere. <><

I wonder how many of the stories about the lack of stopping power of the M-1 Carbine came from a groggy and exhausted and sleep deprived GI or Marine trying to fight Chinse hordes at 2AM in -10 degree weather and howling winds ?

This Beretta is effortlessly operated by the more inexperienced, and so light and handy it could be fairly effectively used with one hand. I’d be perfectly content if this were my only HD resource.

I like Beretta and would have bought one of those except I just can't get over the looks. I am not overly fond of anything that looks like Robocop would have carried it. If they had offered one with a more traditional look I would have jumped on it. I bought the Ruger instead. I think I have it squared away now but it was really undependable when I first got it.

IIRC RoboCop for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it sounds like some self appointed experts stroking their egos and trying to fill the time allotted.
Consider the 22LR's legacy in Every conceivable platform man has ever developed.
Some applications have been ridiculous with even an M2 training conversion being done with it.
No one questions it's applications.
But put a 9mm in a carbine and all of the sudden JHPs have trouble despite the cartridge having applications in sub guns nearly since it's advent.
I don't buy it.
Nor do I buy the powder burn rate argument when the same rates are used in shot shells.
End result is a standard load behaving a bit more like a +P
If a PCC seems to work for you, by all means, use it.

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it just needs more voltage

I’ve heard the myth for about 50 years now that the ice and snow caked cotton padded coats of the Chinese infantry were enough to protect the soldier from the puny 110 gr .308” FMJ bullet at roughly 1900 fps.

Yet I’ve never heard anyone volunteer to go out in the cold in an ice covered cotton padded coat and be a target for obvious reasons.

I suspect where the myth got started were small to start with, skinny, and half starved Chinese soldiers actually being fairly small targets inside their bulky coats and other layers of clothing. US soldiers and Marines may well have seen snow and ice fly off the coat of a Chinese soldier and not slow the soldier down at all, requiring subsequent hits. But it’s very likely that many of those initial “hits” on the coat missed the skinny dude inside.

The handful of Korean War vets I’ve met and spoken with over the years who used an M1 or M2 carbine in combat in Korea all appreciated its 30 round magazine, high rate of fire and overall effectiveness.

It’s important to remember that in the bigger picture it was also a very controversial period of time. The German StG-44 and it’s 7.92x33mm cartridge made a big impression as the first assault rifle, combining select fire capability with an intermediate cartridge. The Soviets followed up with their own 7.62x39mm intermediate round, first in the SKS and then in the select fire AK-47.

The US in turn had developed the M-1 carbine as a substitute personal defense weapon to the 1911 pistol. While they did develop the select fire M2 carbine from it, the generals in charge of ordinance procurement and overall doctrine were still heavily biased toward the main battle rifle.

While the Russians were going all in on the AK-47 and the intermediate M43 round, and while the Brits and Belgians were developing the FAL for use with the intermediate .280 Brit round the US was still campaigning for a full power battle round in a slightly shorter and more select fire/ full auto form.

The end result is that despite the Brits developing the compromise .280/30 round (a .280 Brit that shared the .30-06 head and rim dimensions that could be made on existing tooling) the US literally forced the adoption of 7.62 NATO.

Against that backdrop, the ordinance folks could not say nice things about the M1 Carbine and the select fire M2 and their essentially intermediate round.

The irony was that in addition to spending nearly a decade developing the M-14 from the M-1 Garand (while two guys at Beretta developed the BM-59 from the M-1 Garand in about 18 months creating a weapon superior to the M-14 that could be converted from an M1 using very few new build parts) within just a few years of adoption of the 7.62 NATO round, they started working on the 5.56x45mm round.

I do recall the M1 Carbine being very popular in the late 1960s and early 1970’s for everything from hog hunting to use as a police patrol rifle. And today, with modern hollow points and jacketed soft points, it’s an even better choice for a personal defense weapon than it was in WWII.

I think this is because the 7.62 x 25 is compared to pistol rounds, and the .30 Carbine is compared to rifle rounds. As a rifle round, the 7.62 x 25 is not impressive, and as a pistol round, the .30 Carbine would be super impressive (out of a pistol with a barrel long enough to fully burn the powder!).

My home defense

Glock 31 357sig
591454

Marlin 1894C 44mag
591455

Attached Images

	Glock 31.jpg (120.5 KB, 5 views)
	Marlin 1894C 44mag Photo.jpg (40.8 KB, 3 views)

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Is that a gun No a lifesaver

My HD is a Walther Creed with light. I also have a 90lb Pitbull that doesn’t like company after hours. Yes I will call the cops. BUT if you are in my home , uninvited at night. I’m coming for you. Period.

Certainly a lot of options regarding home defense firearms and ammo. What's far more important in my mind has not been extensively mentioned yet: the ability to effectively use the chosen weapon and ammo in an actual home defense situation.


Preparation through unrehearsed scenario based-training of real world actual or likely situations and settings offered by professional and experienced trainers accompanied by nonjudgmental after-action group debriefs is invaluable. Developing the survival mindset and a well- crafted, rehearsed, and continually reassessed response plan involving all household members cannot be overemphasized.

Likewise, there are multiple alternative ways to grip and present a handgun than a fully extended 2 handed grip or a long gun at maximum length with the stock mounted on the shoulder, improving application, utility, and retention of these firearms in close quarters. Again, a matter of training.

Training and preparation takes time and money, but all well-spent. Ask me how I know.

Anyway, not that it matters that much, but at the end if the day I've gone with the Glock 30 and 21 with defensive rounds and a Mossberg 590A1 pump (9 round capacity) with Federal 00 buckshot as part of our home defense plan. Plenty of mags and rounds in strategic locations.

Only use guns you are accurate with loaded with appropriate ammo for your surroundings. Practice makes perfect with all firearms.

Truth to what you say. Having a plan and being prepared is critical and the most effective defense. Having said that,I have a different outlook for home defense than most others. It is only my wife and I here and I carry all day at home. Gus the German Shepherd goes to the door(we only go to the door when we are expecting known visitors). When we go to bed I don't care if you take everything in the house (insurance) our plan is to call 911 and stay in the bedroom. If anyone crosses through the bedroom door it will be viewed as a threat. Just my thoughts.

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Is that a gun No a lifesaver

My choice for a HD gun would be a 12 gauge shotgun. It is highly effective, very efficient, reliable and as about as un-intimidating as possible to a jury.

The Ruger PCC may indeed be a very capable and reliable HD gun, however its looks are exactly what is being frowned upon and demonized now. Yes, we all know it functions the same as many wood and blued steel rifles do - however it is deemed a "black evil gun". No I'd not use it even though it makes sense and would probably work well.

A 12 gauge Pump SG with a handgun as back-up still is the way to go IMHO.

It also comes in grey, green camo and American Flag colors.

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Front sight and squeeze

I had nothing but problems with the Ruger PC carbine. Fail to eject, double feeds, stovepipes, fail to fire. Sent it back 3 times. Same results. They replaced the rifle. And I sold the replacement without ever seeing it. I would stay away from it.

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