Saw this topic on another board, someone asked "define vintage", he cited the Browning HP he has owned for 55 years. A pair of Colt 1851 Navies ?-shades of Wild Bill Hickok. Another member showed a matching P-38 badly damaged by poor quality Russian ammo. So how old is too old ?

No such thing as too old as long as it functions and uses cartridges rather than BP and caps. I have sometimes carried a 1935 Beretta dated 1944 but some on here have carried guns a lot older than that.

This one is 110 and I carry it all the time.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

My cutoff for EDC or home defensive use is roughly 1900.

Well…age isn’t a problem until it suddenly is.

For example the Walther PP and PPK pistols have been kicking around since 1929 and 1931 respectively. And while being very well made of excellent quality steel very nicely heat treated, the hammer and de-cocking levers have been known to fail.

While made of tough steel, nicely face hardened for wear resistance, over time the crystalline structure that provides that hard outer surface starts to migrate deeper into the steel with repeated impacts. That process continues until the entire part becomes hard - and brittle.

The owners of those old PP and PPK pistols discover that one day when they de-cock the pistol and hear the hammer or de-cocking lever break. It doesn’t happen to all of them, just to those that have been de-cocked enough to cause embrittlement issues over the last 90 years.

Since I don’t usually know who owned them and how they used them, I don’t de-cock old PP and PPKs and instead lower the hammer manually.

That’s the lead in to the big question of how much can you trust an old firearm? It really depends on how much it has been used and how.

For example the US Army had issues with breakage of fire control parts in low round count M9s. They hadn’t been shot excessively, but the multiple impacts of the hammer and de-cocking lever each time it was function checked led to embrittlement of the parts involved in just a couple decades.

In short, I’d happily and confidently use an old Hi Power that had spent most of its life as a safe queen, and/or had new fire control parts installed, either FN or aftermarket Cylinder and Slide parts.

I carried an FN made SFS Hi Power for about a decade and during that time I acquired an FEG 1st gen P9. I converted it to the same SFS system using FN parts and carried it as well, as the parts prone to breakage were now brand new.

But I would not carry a military surplus M9 because I don’t know where it’s been. With new fire control parts. Maybe. They had slide issues as well.

I might carry an old police trade in Beretta 92 as those guns tend to have extensive carry wear but are not shot much. But it would come down to condition.

Some of it also depends on the gun and it’s manufacture history.

Like a really old PP, I also probably would not carry a 1911 made prior to about 1924 when they started hardening the slides due to wear and cracking issues on the older 1911s.

Similarly, the Beretta 3032 Tomcat has a history of cracking in the older models that didn’t have the heavier slides. The newer heavier slides are both wider and have higher frame rails that make them easy to spot. So would I carry an older light slide Tomcat? Probably not, even though they are not that old.

There are jurisdictions where handgun ownership is very problematic. In most of those a cap and ball revolver may still be a “dangerous weapon” but it sidesteps the handgun restrictions as it isn’t legally defined as a firearm.

Now…the dark side of that is also that there are convicted felons who are prohibited individuals who cannot own a firearm but can still evade that restriction with a cap and ball revolver.

The Dukes of Hazard would have been more accurate in that regard if Bo and Luke had carried Ruger Old Army revolvers instead of compound bows, and Ruger could have made some money on product placement and sales.

I pocket carry a j frame. I’ve been using a 36 no dash last few years and late last Fall got a great deal on a 60 no dash. I kept one gun for home defense and carried the other. My wife has some health issues but she was able to pull the trigger on the 36 or cock the hammer after a few dry fires once her hand cramped up. I hang my head to admit she only handled it with dry fire until recently.

We vacation a few times a year away from the woods and visit a beach. I did another post about looking for a vacation gun and something to keep in the pocket for walks along the shore. The steel j frame is too heavy for beachwear and whacks against my leg when we did the morning walks. Plus I wanted something smaller for when I’m home and for pocket carry around the homestead. The Ruger LCP II .22 fit the bill perfectly. Light, easy to carry, and a hoot to blast away with CCI Stingers.

I still carried the j frame into town and as my daily. For grins I sometimes carried both.

My FFL enabler recently got in a 637-2 NIB from an estate that he gave me a great deal on. Yeah it has the stupid lock and MIM parts but it has a lifetime warranty. I was looking for a project gun so thought - why not make a true belly gun. Since it had MIM parts I could swap in a 642-2 MIM hammer I got off eBay, put on some older hogue boot grips and work on the action.

My wife had joined me a time or two at the range. I had her try the 36 and even with big Pachmayr grips the recoil was too harsh. The little Ruger .22 was too hard to hold on to once her hand cramped. So I got out a few more pistols from the safe. After some experimentation she decided on a 19 - alas not S&W but a Glock Gen 3! :-)

So my home defense gun is now the Glock 19. I plan to daily EDC the new 637 after I confirm reliability once I’m done with my customizing. And I will carry the LCP .22 when the mood or situation warrants. Three guns all modern and all with parts availability and two with lifetime warranties. More importantly all three are still in production so easily replaced unlike my no dash 36 or 60.

I'll tote 'em, even some 120 years old. Just because I want to.

I've had my truly oldie handguns on hand for years. If it is Colt or Smith & Wesson then I have toted them seriously without concern. Am willing to carry an early post war FN High Power and a couple of Webleys too for that matter.

Dithering about respected designs from good quality manufacturers is for someone else to do on firearms forums.

"Vintage" is a man made construct. "Old" is what you deem it to be.

In some circles I am vintage.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Upon further consideration, this is the oldest. 1888.

I carried it a few times just to say I did. It is eminently capable - six big fat .44 Russians should sort out any problem I’m likely to run into. Its just too big.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

There’s merit to that.

On the other hand, back when I was teleworking 80% of the time and renting a room for my two days every two weeks in the northern VA area, Star BMs were available in holster worn but low round count and excellent mechanical condition for $200.

I bought three. One for here, one for there, and a spare to address any (unlikely) future parts breakage. It let me carry the same without having to go through the PITA of checking a firearm on a commercial flight or train trip.

They are great little all steel 1911’esque pistols right sized for 9mm and with some other improvements in terms of bobbed grip profile, extractor, etc. Accurate, reliable, and familiar to any 1911 shooter at a small fraction of the cost.



For what it’s worth, in 37 years of concealed carry, and years of bullseye and practical pistol shooting, I’ve never had a handgun actually break.

I had a gunsmith screw up a trigger job once that required new parts to fix. I’ve launched an ejector spring or two into the dark recesses of the garage over the decades. I have worn out a lot of recoil springs that I keep in stock thanks to Wolff Gun Springs. I’ve even worn out an alloy frame 1911, but I’ve never broken a pistol or revolver.

The spare parts availability issue is probably the least important consideration. If a part breaks at all, you have to question overall reliability of your chosen firearm (or how you are abusing the gun), and best case it’s still out of service until you source a new part.

I carried an old US Property marked Colt 1911 purchased from the DCM in 1961 just about everywhere for most of fifty years. I did not retire it because I had lost faith in it, but rather the sentimental value was too high to risk losing it in an evidence locker. So does replacing a hundred and nine year old Colt with a fifty year old Combat Commander still qualify as vintage?

WWII and pre-WWII guns are probably worth more as collectables. So the cutoff for me would be 1946; as they say YMMV.

Maybe make an exception for a "sock drawer" Colt 1903 or 08 like Sig220.45's above...

Carried a 1980s PPK for years as my suit gun ......most of my EDC guns date from the late 80 to mid-90s.

BLACKHAWKNJ, nice question. I think the better approach would be vintage design. I had purchased a Mauser HSc a few years back with the intention of being a CCW handgun, then the reality of current events sunk in. I still like the HSc, but I feel that the heel magazine release could get a user killed. Because of that revelation, I tend to avoid any handgun that might be called upon for self-defense duty that has a heel magazine release!

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Judge control not gun control!

Agree with all who stated it's more about condition and reliability than age.

I have lots of options for EDC including a SIG 365XL which I like and find pretty convenient. More often than not I carry a Chief's Special (barely a pre-Model 36) J-frame shipped early in 1957. It's a birth year S&W for me, all original, and in superb condition.

Very accurate, easy to shoot, and it's about the only EDC I own that I can actually forget I'm carrying. It goes on a belt outside the waistband, high, and shirt-tails easily cover it. That's the reason it gets worn so often.

The fact that it's 65 years old is irrelevant for practical purposes. It isn't everyone's idea of an EDC but the one I'll wear beats the ones I won't or don't.

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Ordnung muss sein
SWHF #789

My primary EDC for most of the last 30 years has been a Colt Commander built in 1959. So there's that.

Disqualifying a gun as a carry gun due to its age is just plain stupid. Some folks carry this "Junior G Man", "Tacticool" **** just a little bit too far. We are talking about guns, not mayonnaise. They don't spoil.

Some of the best guns mankind ever has, or ever will see was made seventy to a hundred years ago. If it is in good shape and reliable there is no reason to disqualify it.

You don't need fifteen or even twenty shots. You need one placed in the right place. Some folks need to quit standing at the three yard line while they spray and pray with their twenty round magazines. They need to step out to the twenty-five yard line and teach themselves to actually shoot, one round at a time. I know that "Call of Duty" and other such video games would have you believing that if you lay down a barrage of fire with the latest plastic wonder you are one Hell of an "operator". But you might want to read about the philosophy of people like Wyatt Earp, Frank Hamer, Wild Bill Hickok, or more recently Bill Jordan. All people who spent very little time fantasizing about gun fights because they were actually in them and won. They will tell you, to a man, that the way to survive a gun fight is to put one shot exactly where it needs to go, and have the sack to stand there, maybe even take a bullet, while you line up your shot, and put the guy in front of you down. If you can't do both of these, you probably ought to stay out of gun fights. You are not going to get to hit the "replay" button and do it again. And, you don't need a twenty shot magazine to do this. These guys would tell you that by the time you get to round three you are probably already dead.

Sorry. Had to get it off my chest. If you disagree, that's fine. I am not responsible for your safety.

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NRA Life Member

I used to carry my 1910 Browning with a 4 digit serial number from the first years production. Now I have that neat little 3913NL or the CS9

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Kind regards, Heinz

Heal mag release was very common with European police/military pistols who believed it was better than frame mounted for their purposes and less likely to drop the mag under stress or by accident. Swiss Border Customs Police P-220 had a shield on the body side of the mag heal release to protect it from accidently releasing the mag. Common for European police/military to carry just one spare mag. Like a lot of things a trade off of security or slightly faster mag change.

I recall a message string in the Other Brands forum where board members
mentioned problems with their HsCs, small parts that were tricky to remove and somewhat prone to failure, and I would avoid any German or German occupied countries manufacture after say 1942. On that other board some spoke well of the Tokarev TT-30 and 33, its one drawback its rather poor grip angle.
As Bill Jordan quoted an unnamed shooting sage "Speed's fine but accuracy's final." If you can channel Charlie Askins in a SD situation you'll do OK.
"Losing it as 'evidence'" ? Get a High Point.

I have a Mauser HSc in .32 ACP and I'd carry it, the heel release doesn't bother me, but my FFL tells me it could be worth $2000 - I'm not risking an expensive, "vintage" gun like that when I have so many other EDC choices.

As for racoonbeast's lovely rant, I understand and agree with it except for a small part:

Being able to hit a target at 25 yards is a skill we should all have but since it is a relatively unimportant skill for gunfighting in modern day America it needn't be emphasized so strongly. If you're in uniform and going to a war zone, yeah, 75 feet death shots could be important. If you're carrying a concealed handgun on the streets of modern day America your marksmanship skills at 75 feet pale in importance to your skills at 10 feet to 20 feet and your ability to face imminent death or serious bodily injury up close and personal and win.

As an aside, and I have always liked Wyatt Earp's comments about gun-fighting (and he was born precisely 100 years to the day before I was), but standing in the lot next to C.S. Fly's photo gallery, about six doors down from the OK Corral, the combatants were never more than 6 to 10 feet apart. You can look that up.

So even in the "Old West" 25 yard pistol marksmanship skills were not often a factor. Jus' sayin'.......

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Come and take it!!

I’ve got a Colt 1903 I’ve been known to tote about . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

As have I . . . .

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Live long and prosper

My 1968 Colt Cobra, first off-duty gun, still shoots great but isn’t carried anymore b/c I want to pass it down to my kids.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

The data doesn’t support your conclusions / fear.

First, based on John Lott’s data and research about 95% of defensive handgun uses don’t involve shots being fired.

Second, when shots are fired, about 50% of all assailants stop when hit by just one shot. That reflects the reality of psychological stops where getting shot sucks and consequently many people getting shot stop doing whatever is getting them shot.

Third, research by the National Police Foundation and the Major Cities Chiefs Association conducted research on officer involved shoots. One of their outputs was a breakdown of number and percentage of shots fired per officer in officer involved shootings. Grouping by 5 it’s:
- 5 shots or less 71% of the time;
- 6-10 shots 17% of the time (10 shots or less 88% of the time); and
-11-15 shots 8% of the time (15 shorts or less 96% of the time).

https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp...ry_8.28.19.pdf

Now…those are officer involved shoots where they go into bad places looking for bad people, with more than one officer present 75% of the time. However, in only 33% of the shoots did more than one officer fire.

There may be some outliers and overlap but in single officer firing scenarios it’s very unlikely that more than 5 rounds are required, and at the other extreme it’s very unlikely that the 4% of engagements involving more than 15 shots fired per officer
involved just a single officer

For armed citizens who should be using good judgement and good SA to stay out of situations where they have to use a gun for self defense, the round count is going to be lower.

In terms of the HSc and it’s 7+1 capacity, 83% of officer involved shoots were over and done in less than 8 shots per officer.

——

The key points here are:

- 95% of the time, just having and or drawing the gun is sufficient;

- even in police uses of firearms, 83% involve 8 shots or less.

- putting the previous two data points together, when using a 7+1 capacity handgun, a need to reload would not exist in 99.15% of defensive handgun uses.

- for that remaining 0.85%, I suggest you practice a tactical reload every time you do an administrative reload.

Steel doesn't age much. A 100 year old spring with 5000 flexes isn't much different than a 45 year old one with the same amount of use. A 100 year old cylinder that was working for 20 years isn't going to blow up under the same pressures 80 years later. My top break 44 Russian would kill someone as dead now as it would have 120 years ago and the same with my triple lock. If it isn't worn out or on the verge of wearing out from use it won't stop function just because of age. It is way more a question of actual use and maintenance than age. A worn out 100year old gun isn't any different than a worn out 1990s one or visa versa. While a mainspring that was cocked for years may take some set I wouldn't want to stand in front of it when you pulled the trigger. The ammo would be more apt to go bad than the spring. If that main spring fired 6 rounds after setting 100 years the odds are really strong it will fir another 500.

A 800 year old sword that wasn't allowed to rust will still take your head off

I at times carry a Colt Model 1903 Hammer in .38 ACP. Will post pictures later.

See Post # 35.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

This Korean War vintage Chi-Com Model 12 Tokarev sits in my bed stand. Reliable, accurate, and lethal.

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John

HSc 7+1 capacity, Colt 1911 same capacity but different caliber.

It's a brand new Smith with an overly vintage shooter that worries me.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

Mine’s a 71…I carry it along with my 69 DS. The DS was my dad’s so way more sentimental. I also hope to pass it down to my kid someday. So I don’t shoot it anymore…but my SP101 is a tank so it lets me snubby practice without worry.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

When my wife and I met her house gun was a 1914 Luger. My off duty gun was a Browning 1922 .32. The Luger was ultra reliable with FMJ. The Browning not so much. I gave her a Model 67. She gave me a Colt Lawman. They and we are now vintage.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Careful OLDSTER you might shoot through some walls if you ever had to use that Tok

The critical point that is being overlooked is;

It is not that the odds are so great but that the consequences are so high.

Meaning these “vintage” or “old”’guns were state of gun design and manufacturing quality when they were new. I wonder how many owners put them away and chose to carry their Grandfather’s or Father’s Cap and Ball Revolver or a handgun that was not safe to carry with a round in chamber or under the hammer instead?

Bought it like this and have carried it like this. No one gives a second glance to it, as they think it is a bible.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

There’s a certain critical mass above which “more” isn’t necessarily “better”.

Look at airline travel. Supersonic airliners were faster but not “Better” in the long term. Only one was ever a commercial success, and it has long since been retired.

Same with jumbo jets like the 747, DC-10, MD-11 and A380, all of which are in sharp decline while the far less capable 737 and A320 soldier on in ever greater numbers with waitlists for new aircraft.

A 1911 is still an exceptionally effective self defense handgun. It more than exceeds the minimum.

The PP introduced DA/SA pistol operation to a handgun in 1929 and they made it slightly smaller with the PPK in 1931. The design itself is still a very concealable and adequately effective self defense handgun. And one that also has a high degree of class and elegance in design that polymer framed pistols just don’t have.

The Browning Hi Power introduced the double stack high capacity magazine in 1935. With improvements in 9mm hollow point design since, it’s more effective than ever as a self defense handgun. And there’s no need to master two different trigger pulls.

A striker fire pistol with all the safeties tied to the trigger may boast less training required to use it safely. But seriously, that’s not entirely true as it requires more training to reholster safely - and even clean safely in the case of the Glock given the requirement to pull the trigger before disassembling. Plus, do you seriously want to to promote less training with a pistol?

Tying all those safeties to the trigger works fine on a duty holster carried well out from the belt, it it’s a safety hazard for someone carrying IWB, especially when paired with a poor holster design.

So is “better” actually “better” outside of a very narrow open carry duty holster, training budget challenged police department transitioning from revolvers setting? Arguably not.

[QUOTE=alwslate;141552114]No such thing as too old as long as it functions and uses cartridges rather than BP and caps.

We had a gentleman stop a home invader with two in the hat using a Black Powder .44. So I don't know about too old. I wouldn't carry one, I carry a 1970's Model 19 2.5". My old off duty revolver.

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Don Mundell

@BB57

You pay your money and take your chances. You seek comfort in statistics to justify your choices. I take a look at the same statistics and use the outliers as justification for carrying a higher capacity handgun loaded with current state of development ammunition instead of a 111 year old gun design and ammunition.

I had a 1873 Remington Whitmore Lifter and a 1889 Remington that I used for vintage shoots. I sold both about 15 years ago but they fired every time the trigger was pulled. I have 3 old top break top pistols chambered in .32 S&W that fire every time the trigger is pulled. I have a M1917 S&W that has always worked.
I have a Beretta M682 Gold E that broke a hammer. I have a M29-2 that broke the pin that holds the trigger. I think they are all good as long they work and nobody knows when one will break.
I also don't put much stock in spring set. My grandpas LC Smith set in the closet for 30 years and it would still shoot. It has been years since it was last shot but I'll bet it will still work. Larry

My 100 year old triple lock is a more solid design than a brand new shiny stainless steel model 67. IT may not be shooting a 158 gr hollow point at 1300 fps, but a 255gr 45 traveling at 850fps is going to make a big hole. An all original Colt 1911 is actually stronger than my 1911 RUGER with an alloy frame. It is way more durable than any plastic Glock.

Depending on the weather and how I dress, I carry either a 325 in 45 acp or a model 431 in 32 H&R mag. But, because they are made with light alloy frames. I do not believe the 325 is bit more powerful than my cut down 1917 and the 325 will have to last another 80 years before we know it is as durable. The 431 is a little more than one of my old I frame 32 longs, but I would trust my life to any of the many of them I have. In fact my wife does carry one because she shoots it well.

No I do not carry a cap and ball revolver, I also don't carry a crossbow.

I carried a wartime Walther PP for years and shot it a bunch at the range. Never had a problem.

I have an ancient Ballester Molina that I've used to shoot many bowling pins and steel plates and never had a malfunction. The same goes for my Sisteme Colt Modelo 1927.

I've heard a commercial 1917 makes a decent house gun. Just saying.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Three comments:

1) If I did it your way - planning for those far right hand tail very low probability contingencies, I wouldn’t bother with a handgun, I’d carry a semi auto carbine with 30 round magazine in the carbine and at least two more in a pouch.

In short, you are also making compromises, they just are not based on hard data and statistical analysis.

2) Just because I’m comfortable carrying something like a well curated Walther PP in 32 ACP in armed-citizen-use-good-judgement-to-stay-out-of-bad-places situations doesn’t mean I am limited to that.

I often carry a CZ-75 PCR with modern hollow points.

3) I also carry a modern iteration of a 111 year old design with modern hollow points. I’m pretty confident there not many situations I could not extricate myself from with a 1911 and a decent hollow point.



The important thing is that someone actually carry a gun and a mouse gun you have on you is far more effective than a hand cannon you left home. Similarly an “old” gun you have and or shoot well is far more effective than a “new” gun that you shoot poorly or haven’t bought yet.

Another of those far right hand probabilities is a new gun breaking. However, I've had that happen. My "Glock Perfection" 17 broke in the first 50 rounds and ceased functioning. If I based all gun usage on that experience, I'd never get a new gun.

[QUOTE=Yaworski;141553443 If I based all gun usage on that experience, I'd never get a new gun.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't do anything that drastic but I would change brands. Larry

everything brakes that's why i carry two

I carry a Chiefs Special from 1952 or a S&W 49 from the 80's.

Extreme red herring comment.

Actually the WW2 design M1 Carbine is dated and not particularly convenient to use. More of a fun range toy.

However the AR-15 can be built as a handgun or carbine in a variety of cartridges such as 9mm, 45, .223, 5.56, 300 Blackout in a variety of barrel lengths. If someone wants to carry one in a Open Carry State I say go for it.

I do take my level of self-defense higher than most Forum members. My edc for the last five years is a full size, high-capacity, 5”’barrel 9mm HANDGUN.

Does the CZ-75 qualify for “vintage”? Hummm. The design is what 50 years old?

I know better than to argue with a 1911 Fanboy. I choose to carry a full size 9mm with twice the on-board ammunition capacity as the 1911 and another 15 round spare magazine.

Fixed it for you.

And with modern guns there is little reason to carry a mouse gun. The discussion is about vintage or old handguns although the O.P. has never set a cut-off date.

What about an M1A1 or an Enforcer?

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I have carried a 1948 M&P and a 1950 Colt Detective Special at various times over the years, both on and off duty. They had both been other peoples service revolvers before I got them. I had no qualms about carrying them. These days the oldest guns I carry at times are a 1961 Gov’t Model and a 1972 Model 12.

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Wheel guns are real guns.