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  #51  
Old 03-17-2009, 05:51 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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You are most welcome, RDak.

Firehouse, I'm sure that Hornady ammo has the goods as far as velocity is concerned. .22 lr. CCI Stingers will do 12" from my Black Widow (Perma-Gel). If that bullet expands from a short barrel, it may lack in penetration. I'm not at all familiar with that ammo so I just don't know. I would do testing of my own, look for test results online and based on what I learned possibly switch to Maxi-mag +V after the Hornady ammo is gone from normal routine use.
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  #52  
Old 03-17-2009, 07:40 PM
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Beretta 21a, RDak - the source of the chrono data on the first page.



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  #53  
Old 03-18-2009, 06:46 AM
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Oh, the Beretta Tomcat. Never shot one but they look like nice little pistols.

https://www.berettausa.com/e2w...100001364:3100001371
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  #54  
Old 03-18-2009, 08:46 AM
Andy Taylor Andy Taylor is offline
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Actually that is the Tomcat's little brother the Bobcat, AKA Model 21A.
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  #55  
Old 03-18-2009, 11:11 AM
S/W - Lifer S/W - Lifer is offline
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There are some ups-and-downs to this, as you can imagine. Organized crime and security services have used .22 LR handguns with success. Accidental shootings with the .22 have accounted for numerous deaths. I expect coroners see the results of .22 shootings fairly often.

The trick is making it happen on your terms. As noted by others, penetration is the key and you need to strike a vital area. I'd rule hollowpoints out. Twenty-two caliber bullets tend to do strange things once inside the human body so results vary.

Downers are the low velocity out of a revolver, as described by others, and the effects of adrenalin on the human body. Once adrenalin kicks in people are hard to put down. I'd try to shoot first, get good hits, and keep at it until it's over, one way or the other.
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  #56  
Old 03-18-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucky Derby:
Actually that is the Tomcat's little brother the Bobcat, AKA Model 21A.
You're right. The .32 is the Tomcat!!
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  #57  
Old 03-18-2009, 03:41 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Quote:
As noted by others, penetration is the key and you need to strike a vital area. I'd rule hollowpoints out.
I haven't tested a ton of loads, but I think pretty much any .22 lr. and almost all .22 mag. hollowpoints will not expand from a 2" barrel.
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  #58  
Old 03-18-2009, 04:48 PM
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Years ago I read a documentary about Tunnel Rats.
During the Vietnam area it said many would use a RUGER MARK 1
due to reliability and low noise in the tunnel. I wonder what kind
of ammo they used?
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  #59  
Old 03-18-2009, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ultraman:
Years ago I read a documentary about Tunnel Rats.
During the Vietnam area it said many would use a RUGER MARK 1
due to reliability and low noise in the tunnel. I wonder what kind
of ammo they used?
The "Tunnels of Cu Chi" claimed that .38s -snubs if they could be had - (presumably loaded with FMJ unless someone got their hands on some Super Vel) were most liked by the tunnel rats.
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  #60  
Old 03-19-2009, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ultraman: ...I wonder what kind of ammo they used?
I had the pleasure of supplying a number to the Tunnel Rats with 'White Box' standard velocity Target ammo. I also had the pleasure of doing a minor repair on one of the Rugers that had a suppressor built into the barrel assembly. I believe that it was found that firing a .38 Special or a .45ACP in such confined spaces wasn't a good idea. Loss of hearing, vision problems because of flying junk and the possibility of cave-ins were just three of the problems.

I had a copy of the book "Tunnels of Cu Chi" but was never able to get past the first few pages. It brought back too many memories.
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  #61  
Old 11-15-2010, 08:43 PM
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I asked a funeral director if he ever had a guy brought in shot with a 22mag.....his reply was...nasty ROUND...! One guy was brought in,when they cut him open he said the 22 mag round had bounced around so much it tore his insides all up!
Jim
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  #62  
Old 11-15-2010, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayoc01 View Post
I asked a funeral director if he ever had a guy brought in shot with a 22mag.....his reply was...nasty ROUND...! One guy was brought in,when they cut him open he said the 22 mag round had bounced around so much it tore his insides all up!
Jim

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  #63  
Old 11-16-2010, 12:06 PM
Lobster Picnic Lobster Picnic is offline
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I'll be using the NAA Black Widow for CC. Right now I've only got the LR cylinder, but I will upgrade to the MAG.

The Black Widow was about the smallest pocket revolver I could find whose grip allows for full control. The NAA Pug was also a consideration (1.375" shorter and 2.4 oz lighter), but I would have wanted to put the larger Black Widow grip on the Pug, which would have hampered its conceal-ability.

The Pug is reportedly quite accurate with its 1" barrel, but I thought the 2" barrel of the Widow would get me better performance from most ammo, and a better sight picture.

I'm using CCI Velocitors in the LR cylinder and will go to the Maxi-Mag-V in .22 MAG.

Thanks to all for this discussion. I know the .22 isn't the best defensive round, but I like that it allows me to practice cheaply and that there is minimal recoil, which means it is suitable for ladies, kids, etc in a pinch. My wife like to frequent thrift stores and flea markets where she often has run-ins with aggressive panhandlers. I feel better if she has the Widow in her purse on these outings.
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  #64  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:02 PM
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IMHO the CCI stinger would be the best choice.

john
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  #65  
Old 11-21-2010, 04:34 PM
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I carry stingers on my beretta bobcat. they seem adecuate. I may or may not have shot a four legged predator that came at me while I was running near my house and it did the trick.
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  #66  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:22 PM
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I keep my wife's Walther P22 loaded with Stingers as well. It wouldn't be my first choice for a defense round, but she is comfortable with it and the gun so I'd rather her have it in her hand than something she can't hit with.
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  #67  
Old 11-21-2010, 08:39 PM
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The first homicide I worked was a 22 shot to the head, one shot stop. I seen a lot of head wounds over the years and never saw anyone survive a 22 to the head. Most people assume you get shot in the head you die immediately not so. Unless you hit the base of the brain what kills you is pressure. A hole in your head helps keep the pressure in the brain down as it swells. The bigger the whole the longer it takes to clog. One case that surprised me was a guy who got shot in the brain with a 357. He had a 38 cal hole on one side of his head and a much bigger whole going out. No way did I think he would survive but several months latter he walked out of the hospital. He didn't walk well but he walked, haven't seen any 22 head shot wounds do that. This is likely for two reasons first a small entry wound which quickly gets plugged with brains and blood clots. Second is the round doesn't tend to exit and will zip around inside the skull till it runs out of energy. Back in the day I carried a little Beretta 22 short for a back-up. Before I carried it I wanted to test it's penetrations power on some 2x4's. It went through three and lodged in the forth. I figured it would penetrate any skull I aimed it at. I think people get to hung-up on pistol calibers, if you want a real man stopper your talking a rifle cartridge starting about 308. When you get down to it none of the calibers that are practical to carry even the mighty 45 are truly man stoppers. Frankly what stops most gun fights is simply someone shooting back.
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  #68  
Old 11-22-2010, 02:36 AM
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Worked lots of shooting with .22lr caliber pistols and some rifles. Some lived and some died. The most memorable was when John Eddie had been beating on Yolanda and she picked up a Ruger MkII and fired one round striking him just below his nose and just above his upper lip, dead center so to speak. Peters 40grn High Speed. Yolanda said the he just dropped to the ground and didn't move any more. The Post on him showed the round entered the brain cavity and bounced around like a ping pong ball and did not exit. The round was severly deformed as was John Eddie's brain.

.22s kill, but I rather stake my life on something a little bigger.

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  #69  
Old 11-24-2010, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
I've worked on a number of killings with .22 LR ammo, and a number of shootings that did not result in deaths. Immediate stops are possible, and are attributable to the same things that work with other calibers: shot placement and adequate penetration.

Adequate penetration is a real issue with .22 LRs. I'd go with hi-speed 40-grainers. Chrono a mess through YOUR gun and see what comes out fastest.

Going with lighter weight or hollowpoint bullets seems like an invitation to have even more problems with penetration than a .22 LR has inherent to its slow (particularly out of a handgun), light bullets.

FWIW, I'd use CCI Velocitors - they consistently chrono the fastest average (tho with high deviations) of .22 LRs from handguns for me, and they're 40-grain solids.
Thank you for your posts. Very informative. I agree with the CCI Velocitors. When you've ran the AR platform with .22 convo kits as much as I have (or the SW15-22), you can see the strengths and weaknesses of certain .22 ammo. CCI Vel. and MiniMags are the ticket in my book. But that's apples and oranges. Or ARs and Handguns if you will...

Steve
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  #70  
Old 11-24-2010, 01:20 PM
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If I had to use a 22 LR for self defense, I'd go with the 40 gr bullets -- CCI mini-mags or Federal HV -- processed through the Paco Kelly accurizer. The flattened cup shape will give good penetration and still create a crush channel.

Another choice might be the Aguila Interceptor. I haven't tested it as thoroughly as the CCI or Federal but it is just as accurate even though it smells funny
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  #71  
Old 11-24-2010, 09:12 PM
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Same with a .22 as with any other ammo....get the ammo that is MOST reliable and MOST accurate in YOUR gun....

As far as .22's killin' folks, or stopping them. I can assure you that a .22 in the brainbox is mighty effective. I have seen it done several times.
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  #72  
Old 11-25-2010, 02:47 AM
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I use the Remington bulk stuff for target and load CCI Stingers in the wife's P22 for SD. I'm not sure what the difference is between the CCI Velocitors and the Stingers, but when shooting the Stingers, there is a greater/more noticeable amount of muzzle flash, sound and recoil (i.e. more powerful round) vs. the bulk stuff. Plus, I have not had one mis-fire with the Stingers. I believe CCI Stinger package says 1640 fps, all other stuff says around 1250 fps.
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  #73  
Old 11-30-2010, 02:52 AM
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Ultraman's M317 is an aluminum (frame/cylinder/barrel) AirLite. I wonder if anyone knows what Smith & Wesson has to say about recommended .22LR ammo for this weapon. With all the comments about different rounds, I have some doubts about the Hyper Velocity rounds like the CCI Stinger. I am guessing that the High Velocity (Winchester Super-X, CCI MiniMag) would be safe. My old M442was said to be not recommended for +-P .38sp's and it has a steel cylinder and barrel.
I am waiting for the M43C (AirLite Centennial .22LR) with similar construction, so the question is pertinent to me.
Cockerpoodle

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  #74  
Old 12-02-2010, 01:56 AM
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The 351 is a .22 Magnum with an aluminum frame and cylinder. If Smith and Wesson trusts the aluminum to handle .22 Magnums, it should be able to handle hyper-velocity .22lr's.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:59 AM
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I appreciate the comment from 617X10. My (not exhaustive) research suggests that the current 351PD has a Scandium/aluminum frame and cylinder plus an inner stainless steel "barrelette." I think the 317 is clear-coated aluminum with a stainless barrel liner.
Cockerpoodle
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  #76  
Old 12-04-2010, 05:42 AM
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When my wife was using a .22LR for defense I used Remington Vipers. Solid and even out of a short barrel it would penetrate the side of a steel drum. It will rapidly inform you of the quality of your chambers in a revolver.
Geoff
Who notes it often has feeding problems in SOME semi-autos, and does not group as well as others.
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:39 PM
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I suppose considering what I have read here, if I HAD to carry a .22 handgun for self defense(a choice I hope never to HAVE to make) I think my choice of ammo would either be CCI Stingers(I HAVE shot those and they're plenty hot) OR a choice that doesn't seem to be very popular for whatever reason and that is the Aguila Super Extra. My choice of handgun would be even more limited as I don't like Walthers in that caliber so I would have to go with the Baretta Bobcat because I just can't think of a more reliable 22 handgun and because I'm not fond of revolvers. Since I DO have a choice, at least at present anyway, I will simply carry my FN57. I love having 20 rounds in the magazine, and the 5.7x28mm TEARS UP everything it hits.
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  #78  
Old 08-15-2016, 02:26 AM
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As others have said, 40 grain solid bullet. High velocity or Hyper velocity. This combination will deliver the best potential combination of penetration and energy.
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Old 08-15-2016, 05:44 AM
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I remember Jeff Cooper blessing the .22 for self defense because he said
you will practice a lot more with the .22. (lower cost of ammo, less
recoil, etc.)
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  #80  
Old 08-15-2016, 08:40 AM
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Guys, the OP posted this over 7 years ago and hasn't been here in 5. He now carries a 2 3/4" 500ES .
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  #81  
Old 08-15-2016, 01:48 PM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
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WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?  
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I recall Bill Jordan saying the .22 has killed more folks than any other
caliber, excluding those killed in wars.
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:57 PM
mrsig mrsig is offline
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WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?  
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I have had good luck with stingers.
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  #83  
Old 08-15-2016, 08:08 PM
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WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?  
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OK, given the OP is long gone the title still got my attention.

The answer is I wouldn't.

Yeah, with the right shot placement it will work but as an SD gun, just no. I do carry a 22 mag as my primary at times and even there it is more a belly gun to give me time to escape as the attacker winces or a show stopper if I can put it to his head or neck.

Sure you can practice more with a 22 but that is just general practice like working on trigger basics or other general shooting stuff.

Just my 2 cents on something I would bet doesn't come up often.
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Old 08-15-2016, 08:11 PM
fdw fdw is offline
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WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?  
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A resurrection post.

CCI Stingers.
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  #85  
Old 08-16-2016, 12:06 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
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WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR  AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?  
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Thoroughly necro'd, but still fun.

Answer: "Whatever is most reliable." Which means CCI, Aguila, maybe Federal. The most important component is literally the primer compound. On cheap bulk .22, it's applied mechanically and very inconsistently, leading to some or even all of it drying and separating from the case, causing FTFs.
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