Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense
Forum Register Expert Commentary Members List


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-11-2009, 03:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sarasota, Fl, USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?

For a plethora of reasons which I don't care to debate, I now carry a S&W Model 317
as my Primary Personal Carry Weapon. Fully aware that a .22 LR is not the caliber
or choice for this purpose I at least want to have it loaded with the 8 rounds that will
do the most damage. I have read pro's and con's on hollow point verses round nose.
What I think I want is the heaviest & fastest round nose round available but don't
know what it would be. I would love your input. Please...no flaming me over my personal
decision to carry this weapon / caliber, as I said I have many reasons.

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-11-2009, 03:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sarasota, Fl, USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE?

For a plethora of reasons which I don't care to debate, I now carry a S&W Model 317
as my Primary Personal Carry Weapon. Fully aware that a .22 LR is not the caliber
or choice for this purpose I at least want to have it loaded with the 8 rounds that will
do the most damage. I have read pro's and con's on hollow point verses round nose.
What I think I want is the heaviest & fastest round nose round available but don't
know what it would be. I would love your input. Please...no flaming me over my personal
decision to carry this weapon / caliber, as I said I have many reasons.

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-11-2009, 04:25 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

I've worked on a number of killings with .22 LR ammo, and a number of shootings that did not result in deaths. Immediate stops are possible, and are attributable to the same things that work with other calibers: shot placement and adequate penetration.

Adequate penetration is a real issue with .22 LRs. I'd go with hi-speed 40-grainers. Chrono a mess through YOUR gun and see what comes out fastest.

Going with lighter weight or hollowpoint bullets seems like an invitation to have even more problems with penetration than a .22 LR has inherent to its slow (particularly out of a handgun), light bullets.

FWIW, I'd use CCI Velocitors - they consistently chrono the fastest average (tho with high deviations) of .22 LRs from handguns for me, and they're 40-grain solids.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:34 AM
Titan's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MA - Where the 2nd Amendment is under seige
Posts: 726
Likes: 30
Liked 77 Times in 33 Posts
Default

Jim Scouten on Shooting Gallery recently featured a tour to CCI to analyze various types of .22LR ammo.

As I recall, they rated Velocitors best for penetration, but they also showed a 'Segmented Hollowpoint' that was designed to fragment shortly after impact and, according to the ballistic gelatin tests, would indicate likely extensive damage to small game.

If cold weather and lots of layers of clothing aren't a factor, then the segmented hollowpoint round may be an option to evaluate.

Personally, I use CCI Mini-Mag Hollow points (36 grain) in the Walther P22 that my wife often carries.

The P22 is also fitted with a laser to aid with shot placement. I'd strongly recommend CT grips for your gun, if you can swing the cost.

As Erich pointed out shot placement is key in any shooting situation, but essential with a .22LR
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:19 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northeastern Kentucky
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I wonder if the 60-grain Aquila SSS might not be a good choice. It hits pretty hard.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-11-2009, 07:45 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

The SSS 60-grain stuff is great stuff - very accurate and pleasant to shoot, as well as consistent in velocity. Problem is that velocities are really low. Really low from a short-barreled handgun of the type Ultraman has displayed in his (very nice) photo above. I'd be concerned that, even with the amazing sectional density these have, they just wouldn't penetrate a skull if needed at the velocities delivered.

Certainly underscores the importance of chrono'ing ammo from your gun.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-11-2009, 07:54 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

Just as an illustration, here are some velocities I chron'd from a 2 3/4" Beretta 21A last year:

Okay, here are a big bunch of data for different ammos from the 2 3/8" pop-up barrel.

Winchester Super X Super Speed RN 40-gr plated round nose
M 811.3/ES 46.8/SD 20.89

CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet) 40-gr LFP
M 841.2/ES 67.1/SD 22.79

CCI Blazer 40-gr RNL
M 830.1/ES 143.7/SD 51.41

PMC Zapper 40-gr PRNL (red box)
M 797.5/ES 101.2/SD 52.84

PMC Zapper 40-gr PRNL (orange box)
M 847.7/ES 98.76/SD 38.74

CCI Velocitor (new) 40-gr PHP
M 852.2/ES 71.41/SD 28.14

Aguila SSS 60-gr RNL
M 606.0/ES 47.34/SD 21.07

Aguila Super Colibri 20-gr lead truncated cone
M 494.4/ES 19.74/SD 8.18

CCI Stinger 32-gr PHP
M 1004/ES 86.16/SD 38.45

Aguila Interceptor 40-gr PFP
M 931.8/ES 155.2/SD 55.79

CCI Mini-Mag 40-gr PRN
M 879.9/ES 16.60/SD 7.07

Federal Champion bulk 36-gr PHP
M 928.1/ES 105.9/SD 38.96

CCI Mini-Mag 36-gr PHP
M 848.1/ES 71.00/SD 27.87

Aguila .22 Super Extra 40-gr PRN
M 836.1/ES 68.87/SD 29.42

Federal Automatch bulk 40-gr RNL
average 849.3 fps/ES 29.58 fp/SD 11.40
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-11-2009, 07:58 AM
safearm's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,452
Likes: 78
Liked 131 Times in 76 Posts
Default

+1 on the CCI Velocitors. While not much of an issue in a revolver, the increased energy of this ammunition virtually guarantees cycling of a semi-auto, even if extremely dirty. I use it exclusively in a Browning Buckmark (fitted with a Red Dot sight)and have never had a problem, either with function or accuracy.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-11-2009, 10:32 AM
Absent Comrade
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ashland, Oregon
Posts: 1,205
Likes: 34
Liked 418 Times in 212 Posts
Default

Iíd like a 317, oddly with a lock, for my wife.
I too think Iíd choose a 40 grn solid.

Erich, from your data, arenít the plain old Mini Mags quicker than the Velocitorís?
(CCI Mini-Mag 40-gr PRN
M 879.9/ES 16.60/SD 7.07)


Emory
__________________
Hard To Kill
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

Crofoot, in THAT gun, yes. As I said, though, one needs to shoot a variety of ammo from one's own specific gun - this is particularly true with .22 LR ammo, I've found.

I've found that Velocitors tend to give the better velocities across the board - I was just giving that suggestion to Ultraman in the event that he didn't have a chrono. Truth is, I carry the Federal Automatch round in the 21A, for a variety of other reasons.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-11-2009, 12:51 PM
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Default

You will need to do a search, but I tested various .22 lr. from a 2" NAA Black Widow into Perma-Gel. The results are, I think in the the "North American Arms, much meaner than I thought" thread in the CCW forum, or the "Perma-Gel test results" thread in the ammunition forum. IIRC CCI Stingers gave the best performance. As I remember, I got about 13" penetration from the Stingers, with or without heavy clothing.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-11-2009, 01:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,211
Likes: 18
Liked 344 Times in 146 Posts
Default

I used to have one of those 317s as an understudy to the 337 that I had at the time.

I'd look for CCI's "SGB" -small game bullet. Flat point so at least it would cut a nice wound.

I used Quick Shok at the time when I had mine. Might still be worth dutch loading a 1:1 mix of that.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-11-2009, 03:13 PM
MTKTM's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 734
Likes: 1
Liked 30 Times in 24 Posts
Default

On the few occasions where I've carried a 22 for defensive purposes I loaded it up with Stingers. That appears to be the fastest load out of a short-barrel according to Erich's chrono figures (thanks for that, Erich!!). I think if I were going to load up a 317 for defense, however, I'd be tempted to alternate Stingers and Aguila SSS in that 10-shot wheel-gun.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:26 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 33.41N 111.54W
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Careby:
I wonder if the 60-grain Aquila SSS might not be a good choice. It hits pretty hard.
I was thinking the same thing. More mass + better sectional density = better terminal performance.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:33 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 33.41N 111.54W
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Erich:
The SSS 60-grain stuff is great stuff - very accurate ... I'd be concerned that, even with the amazing sectional density these have, they just wouldn't penetrate a skull if needed at the velocities delivered.
Do not base your selection of ammo on skull penetration. Human skulls are extremely difficult to penetrate. There are hundreds of documented cases of .45's and 9mm's and.38's hitting the skull and not penetrating it. COM is the place to aim, not between the eyes.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:38 PM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

Shottist, thanks, but I've worked on now over 200 handgun killings so I have an idea where to put them. Nothing really vital near the center-of-mass, BTW - I'd advise spending time with Gray's Anatomy and targeting specific anatomical vitals. While you're in there, look at where to shoot the skull to best effect penetration.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:57 PM
kennyb's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: griz.va@att.net
Posts: 6,213
Likes: 475
Liked 629 Times in 414 Posts
Default

several years ago,before i retired,we had a guy here that was in his motel room drinking...he picked up his beretta 22cal.md.21a and shot himself in the head four times...left his room,walked to the 7-11 store and was calmly sipping coffee when finally the clerk took notice of lots of blood....yep,hard head and made a full recovery
__________________
SWCA#2208
KK4EMO
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-12-2009, 05:56 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

Evidently not adequate penetration.

I worked peripherally on a case in which a guy shot two guys from a different social club with a 21a. Both DRT, dropped like rocks.

We could do this all day. You need to hit the vitals to effect a stop with a handgun, which requires shot placement and adequate penetration. Choose your ammo to best be able to get this done, practice, and study up on where you need to shoot. Ultraman specifically requested that we avoid comment on his caliber choice - presumably he's aware of its limitations.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-12-2009, 06:29 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sarasota, Fl, USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Yes, I'm very aware. I'm also aware of all the negative opinions about choosing this caliber for self-defense. However like I said I have many reasons for my choice... many.

I will say that it is for canceled carry and I'm a civilian not a police officer. I don't carry a back up or
speed loaders... I'll shoot-shoot and maybe shoot and try to break contact and get away ASAP!
You won't see me going toe to toe like an officer has too. Now for my home... I have a S&W
model 65 loaded with .38 +P's.

Thanks everyone for the input thus far! Bill
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-12-2009, 06:53 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: sw pa
Posts: 487
Likes: 36
Liked 38 Times in 18 Posts
Default

I may be in the minority,but I have never had a full box of 22 rimfire the performed on the 1st try.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-12-2009, 08:31 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

Bummer, you raise a significant issue. I can't say that I've had primer-related misfires in every box, but I've certainly noted that rimfire ammo is less reliable in ignition than is centerfire.

We discussed this a bit on the Rimfire Forums - there appeared to be a strong feeling that more expensive match grade ammo was more reliable in ignition than the "regular stuff." Ultraman, you might do well to consider this. Of course, you could just use Aguila 40-grain Interceptors (the fastest 40-grainer .22 LRs I've ever chrono'd, albeit with enormous spreads from handguns) which use Eley priming (second to none).

Nice thing about Ultraman's 8-shot J-frame is that a misfired round is quickly bypassed by a natural second tug at the trigger.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-12-2009, 08:41 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sarasota, Fl, USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Erich:
Nice thing about Ultraman's 8-shot J-frame is that a misfired round is quickly bypassed by a natural second tug at the trigger.
Yep, revolvers rule!!!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:40 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 431
Likes: 7
Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I can't believe no one has mentioned sub sonic rounds yet...don't want em to hear ya. Some really good information on 22 rounds going on here..very helpful.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:07 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

There exists no .22 LR that is anything other than subsonic from Ultraman's gun, Spearcrow.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-12-2009, 03:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Some data for you.

North American Arms speed tests
__________________
"You should enjoy life with the gun you have, not the gun you wish you had"
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-12-2009, 04:00 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,211
Likes: 18
Liked 344 Times in 146 Posts
Default

Supposedly, at least according to the gun rags at the time it was introduced, one of the reasons that the 317 had (has? Mine was an earlier one, so maybe it changed) a relatively hard trigger pull was in order to guarantee more reliable ignition with rimfire ammo.

QC on match loads is probably better then bulk pack, with bulk pack split casings, squib loads, and other problems can be observed, some of which can bind up even a revolver. (I shot that 317 a lot...)

(Now back to: "Should I drink this cup of bleach or this one of Drano?" where "Buy a Pepsi" has been taken off the table...and we attempt to arrive at the best brand of bleach.)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-13-2009, 03:07 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sarasota, Fl, USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Thanks for all the input.
so now I'm thinking... CCI Velocitor if I can find any!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Interesting discussion.

If you don't mind me asking the same question except make it about .22 magnum.

I have a S&W 351PD that a police Lt. and my CPL instructor both said is very adequate for concealed carry.

I've always been torn about .22 mag being enough but the handgun is so light!!

Any thoughts about what kind of .22 mag shells to buy.

Both of the "pros" who said it was a good cartridge for self-defense said get hollow points.

Thanks for any opinions.

I'm thinking it might be a good gun for concealed carry in the warm months. Of course, up here in Michigan, this lasts for about 2 weeks!!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-13-2009, 07:45 PM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default



Yeah - I suspect neither of these "pros" had a great deal of experience shooting people with .22 Magnums.

Same advice: fastest heaviest solid that balances out from your gun.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Is the Velocitor going to work more or less as a solid at such slow speeds? It seems to be a pretty tough HP for a 22. BTW, I chronyed a few from a Ruger MkII with the 6 7/8" (why can't they just say 7") barrel and I got about 1200 fps. They only just break 1400 fps from my 581 rifle (24").
__________________
"You should enjoy life with the gun you have, not the gun you wish you had"
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 03-14-2009, 04:40 AM
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Velocitors will not expand from a 2" gun.
Quote:
Originally posted by RDak:
Interesting discussion.

If you don't mind me asking the same question except make it about .22 magnum.

I have a S&W 351PD that a police Lt. and my CPL instructor both said is very adequate for concealed carry.

I've always been torn about .22 mag being enough but the handgun is so light!!

Any thoughts about what kind of .22 mag shells to buy.

Both of the "pros" who said it was a good cartridge for self-defense said get hollow points.

Thanks for any opinions.

I'm thinking it might be a good gun for concealed carry in the warm months. Of course, up here in Michigan, this lasts for about 2 weeks!!
I tested CCI maxi-mag +V hollowpoints and .30 gr TNT Gold Dots from my 2" Black Widow. The results are in the Perma-Gel test thread in the ammunition forum. The TNTs expanded impressively, even through four layers of denim, but failed to yield even 8" penetration as I recall. The +Vs seem to use a powder that yields higher velocities from short barrels, but do not expand from my 2" gun. They penetrate about 16" in Perma-Gel, and are what I load my Black Widow with.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-14-2009, 05:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Yes Erich and Thomas, I was afraid that would be the general concensus but read this article if you have the time.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Erich, in the .22 magnum wounds you've seen, was it ineffective?

Thanks for any further info.

Here's a brief excerpt but please read the article if you have the time:

Quote:
(By M. Ayoob) - I havenít run across that many .22 Magnum shootings in my career. Itís not that popular a cartridge and therefore doesnít get used very often in shootouts. However, I do recall two cases in which it was used, both times out of miniature revolvers with two-inch or even shorter barrels. In both cases, the result was an instant one-shot stop after a single round to the chest, and both incidents proved quickly fatal. HmmÖmaybe Bill Jordan was onto something with that ďwickedĒ stopping power comment.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-14-2009, 06:57 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

RDak, I've only seen one that I can recall, and it was from a rifle - which worked fine. Mas has more experience re: the way it performs from a handgun.

BTW, I have a Bearcat at Hamilton Bowen's right now, getting converted to .22 Mag. I've asked him to sight it to be "on" with 40-grainers, which I'm thinking are likely to do 1300-1400 fps from the 4" barrel.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-14-2009, 07:19 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Thanks for the quick response Erich!

What do you plan on using the converted handgun for?

I'm still torn on this one Erich because of the larger caliber guns I have and the general opinion of .22 calibers for self-defense.

But that darn 351PD is so light and easy to shoot. Perfect weight and size for summer pocket carry. Lighter than a set of keys for pete's sake!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-14-2009, 08:01 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I don't have a problem with the 22. I have a problem with the amount of lead you can release towards the bad guy.
I would carry at least two revovlvers or one auto with several full magazines.
The idea being, if you can't knock him down then cut him in half with volume.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-14-2009, 10:19 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

RDak, I just wanted to have a Bowen gun, and I have enough .22 LRs so I thought a Mag would be fun. Make a nice little hike gun, I guess.



I've carried .22s from time-to-time: it might be that I'll carry the .22 Mag sometimes. It's pretty with the Sack Peterson stocks, and I expect it'll be a work of art when it gets back from Mr. Bowen's.
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
The idea being, if you can't knock him down then cut him in half with volume.
Ah, the "Spray & Pray Generation" is heard from!!! Volume will never replace good shot placement in a gun fight.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-14-2009, 04:03 PM
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by KKG:
Quote:
The idea being, if you can't knock him down then cut him in half with volume.
Ah, the "Spray & Pray Generation" is heard from!!! Volume will never replace good shot placement in a gun fight.
I don't know if that's so much a spray and pray mentality as a realization that bullet sponges are out there. Cutting someone in half implies that the shots are hitting, but one or two just aren't enough sometimes.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-14-2009, 04:40 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

hi-speed copper plated solids
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-15-2009, 04:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Ok, thanks for the replies guys. (Yes Thomas, I'm afraid at most, it will provide lightweight protection.)

Nice gun Erich!! It will even be more of a beauty when it is done.

Edit: Btw, here's a link to the revolver I have:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/we...nt_category_rn=15704
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-15-2009, 07:47 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by flop-shank: ... a realization that bullet sponges are out there...
Yes, "bullet sponges" are out there but not to the degree that cutting a BG in half is a requirement nor is carrying enough ammo on a daily basis for that purpose a good idea. At least, not if you carry enough gun to begin with. Now if you're in the Military and in a combat zone and all "they" are offering you is a .22 then carry as much as you can. Increasing the ammo numbers was the whole reason for adopting the M-16 to begin with and making them machine guns to boot pretty much says it all - NOT enough gun so "cut 'em in half" and let somebody else sort out the parts!

Yep, "Spray & Pray Generation" without a question.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sarasota, Fl, USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by KKG:
Quote:
Originally posted by flop-shank: ... a realization that bullet sponges are out there...
Yep, "Spray & Pray Generation" without a question.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ultraman:
I will say that it is for canceled carry and I'm a civilian not a police officer. I don't carry a back up or
speed loaders... I'll shoot-shoot and maybe shoot and try to break contact and get away ASAP! Bill
But I will admit... 8 is more better than 6
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:22 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Jackson, Tennessee
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

I know in Erich's he has some good figures and I would copy them, then go to North American Arms.com and look at all their data on 22 rounds. They make a lot of 22 and there is a page with such info. Personally, I like Stinger ammo, basically a good hollow point. I currenty just use 22 for Ruger rifles, but I used to have a 22 NAA revolver.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:46 AM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default

RDak, that 351 is really nifty!
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,211
Likes: 18
Liked 344 Times in 146 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RDak:
Interesting discussion.

If you don't mind me asking the same question except make it about .22 magnum.

I have a S&W 351PD that a police Lt. and my CPL instructor both said is very adequate for concealed carry.

I've always been torn about .22 mag being enough but the handgun is so light!!

Any thoughts about what kind of .22 mag shells to buy.

Both of the "pros" who said it was a good cartridge for self-defense said get hollow points.

Thanks for any opinions.

I'm thinking it might be a good gun for concealed carry in the warm months. Of course, up here in Michigan, this lasts for about 2 weeks!!
I'm actually from Michigan and flopshank is still there. He carries, if I remember right, a 629 and a couple of BUGs. My classic MI carry was a Kimber CDP and a couple of BUGs, one of which was actually a BHP.

Anyway, there are .32 and .38 revolvers that weigh essentially the same as your 351 is saving weight is simply your goal.

My experience with .22 Mag handguns was limited to a HS DM101 derringer and an NAA Mini, both of which tended to keyhole. To the extent that I used my NAA as a BUG, I kept it loaded with FMJ rounds.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-16-2009, 01:19 PM
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Default

A 351 isn't really a bad idea as an end of the line BUG (not my choice, but I could see the logic of it) it's light recoil could be helpful if you are wounded and it's higher capacity will give you more shots than a 5 shooter. I would advise carrying something more powerful as a primary if possible, but that's your decision. I don't beat up good guys for what they carry. I'm just glad that they do. FWIW most .22 lr., and I'll guess magnum, hollowpoints will not expand from a 2" barrel. CCI maxi-mag hollowpoint +Vs are what I load in my Black Widow (it's my end of the line BUG). They do not expand, but should penetrate very deeply. They definately did when I tested them in Perma-Gel. If your gun likes that load I would look no further. I researched .22 mag. ammo and the online data I found showed that load as having much higher velocity from a short barrel than your average .22 magnum fare.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-16-2009, 05:31 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO USA
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I sometimes carry a Walther P-22 as my CCW. It is light and convenient, perhaps not ideal - but adequate. It holds 10 high-speed .22lr solids, and is 100% reliable.

JERRY
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-16-2009, 06:00 PM
Erich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: High Desert of NM, USA
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 753
Liked 1,009 Times in 437 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Erich
Default



Well, I've got this in my pocket right now!

(Of course, I've got a .45 right over there . . .)
__________________
Now go make God proud.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-17-2009, 02:37 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 1
Liked 23 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Does anyone have any data on the 22 magnum Hornady 30gr. V-Max? My Aunt purchased a 351PD and she asked for a recommendation on carry ammo and I gave her a box of that. It looked like good stuff, and Hornady has a great reputation for dependable ammo. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-17-2009, 04:37 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Thanks for the info. Gator and flop-shank.

That's the exact ammo I have for the revolver flop-shank.

Erich, what is that neat little gun you pictured?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
22lr, 317, 45acp, 581, 629, beretta, bowen, cartridge, ccw, concealed, jordan, kimber, lock, military, model 16, primer, rimfire, ruger, sig arms, subsonic, suppressor, walther

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Concealed Carry & Self Defense Thread, WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? in General Topics; WHAT IS THE BEST .22 LR AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE? For a plethora of reasons which I don't care to ...
LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/70178-what-best-22-lr-ammunition-self-defense.html
Posted By For Type Date
What\'s the Best 22LR Ammo-Wiki Finder This thread Refback 10-29-2013 01:22 AM
What is BEST 22LR AMMO SELF DEFENSE? This thread Refback 10-18-2013 11:06 AM
PMC Zapper 22LR for Sale This thread Refback 05-06-2013 12:26 PM
What is BEST RATED 22LR AMMO? This thread Refback 01-12-2013 07:05 PM

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
9mm +p ammunition raykdman Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 25 03-26-2014 10:31 AM
Bear Defense-Mixing Ammunition! off road Concealed Carry & Self Defense 3 06-11-2011 11:07 AM
M58 Ammunition focsle S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 30 03-31-2011 04:30 PM
Hornady's Self Defense Ammunition Dave270 Concealed Carry & Self Defense 21 01-09-2011 05:27 AM
357 ammunition roaddog28 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 7 03-21-2009 08:19 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:14 AM.


© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2013
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)