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Old 01-29-2009, 09:50 PM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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For the sake of discussion:

Some people justify certain carry arms, such as snub nosed J-frames, using the 3-3-3 'rule'. That is, that the average gunfight lasts 3 shots, in 3 seconds, at a distance of 3 feet.

Yet, few people carry around the hottest loads these snubbies can handle, full power 357 magnum. Why is that?

Since most arguments come down to scenarios (or attempting to encompass as many as possible), it seems to me that there may be a higher number of scenarios facing the average CC'er that favor hot loads vs downloaded ones if the 3-3-3 statistic holds true.

This is mostly just an intellectual exercise, but I think it's worth at least re-thinking the assumption. If for nothing else than to re-affirm it stronger than before.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:50 PM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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For the sake of discussion:

Some people justify certain carry arms, such as snub nosed J-frames, using the 3-3-3 'rule'. That is, that the average gunfight lasts 3 shots, in 3 seconds, at a distance of 3 feet.

Yet, few people carry around the hottest loads these snubbies can handle, full power 357 magnum. Why is that?

Since most arguments come down to scenarios (or attempting to encompass as many as possible), it seems to me that there may be a higher number of scenarios facing the average CC'er that favor hot loads vs downloaded ones if the 3-3-3 statistic holds true.

This is mostly just an intellectual exercise, but I think it's worth at least re-thinking the assumption. If for nothing else than to re-affirm it stronger than before.
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:11 AM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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It would help to hit the target with those three shots I suppose, and the smaller J frame snubs are rather difficult to control - and painful to practice with - when loaded with full power .357 loadings. Some of the truly light Scandium frame guns may verge on nigh uncontrollable. Thus someone may be on the right track in picking a theoretically less powerful loading if they can actually practice with it, gain proficiency with it, and hit the target.

It's also arguable what effect muzzle energy is really going to have if one has guaranteed adequate penetration and even managed to get the gravy of expansion. It might also be arguable whether the added recoil and muzzle blast justify the use of the full power loads in a short barrel compared to what is delivered on target.

(Of course I don't subscribe the 3-3-3 idea since I don't believe in "averages" when it comes to things of this nature given that the average number of gun fights is going to be "zero" for a given person in a life time. Once we're already dealing with an anomaly, I'd hedge towards it being a very bad day and strange things happening. Others will have differing opinions.)
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:28 AM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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Doesn't the recoil problem have to do with fast follow up shots? What if the strange happening is a 280lb goliath and you only have time for one shot?
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:27 AM
Wyatt Earp Wyatt Earp is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:
Doesn't the recoil problem have to do with fast follow up shots? What if the strange happening is a 280lb goliath and you only have time for one shot?
Then it won't matter what caliber or how powerful your ammo is because without perfect shot placement, the one-shot stop is largely a myth.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:21 AM
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I have always believed in using the heaviest bullet and the highest velocity "reasonable" for whatever I choose to carry.

Now my definition of "reasonable" may not be the same as many other people. I use the 180grain loading in the .40S&W because the lighter bullets don't perform the way I want them to. Velocity can't make up for bullet weight. Yep, I know that there are 180grain loads for the .357 Magnum but I don't find them particularly useful so I choose to "stay" with the 158grain loading. They also make 300grain loadings for the .44 Magnum but I also find the 240grain loading to be the most desirable. And, Yes, they make a 350grain loading for the .45 Colt but I find the 250grain loading to work best.

My "reasonable" also means I use the Hot Load as apposed to a medium one for these carry calibers. But, these are also loads I have practiced with and know that I am "comfortable" with in my guns.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:41 AM
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There are so many variables involved that it is hard to know what will/can happen until after the fact. This should make for some good discussion though.

In my opinion, the hotter rounds can lead to over penetration. You won't want the bullet to go through the target and hit an innocent bystander.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Model520Fan Model520Fan is online now
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:
That is, that the average gunfight lasts 3 shots, in 3 seconds, at a distance of 3 feet.
Actually, on the average, gunfights don't occur at all. Most folks never even see one, much less take part in one.

Carrying a gun is always a tradeoff between competing desires.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Model520Fan: ...Most folks never even see one...
My first one was when I was 17 and it wasn't my last so I guess I'm one of those that is an exception to your Rule!
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:09 AM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:
Doesn't the recoil problem have to do with fast follow up shots? What if the strange happening is a 280lb goliath and you only have time for one shot?
It also has an influece on practice and technique. Someone ising painful loads is probably not going to practic e much - unless they like the pain - and may also develop a flinch or other problems.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:16 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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I tend to use very powerful ammunition. I believe that the best ammunition may turn a marginal hit into a good one. But you have to be able to shoot your carry ammo well. A good example is the ammo in my 360 PD. I use Speer SB .357s because full power 125 gr. Remingtons literally physically mess up my hand. The last time I shot a cylinder of them, my hand was messed up for a month and a half and I don't shoot very good with them. The Speer load is the most powerful load I can get away with.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:57 PM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:
Doesn't the recoil problem have to do with fast follow up shots? What if the strange happening is a 280lb goliath and you only have time for one shot?
It also has an influece on practice and technique. Someone ising painful loads is probably not going to practic e much - unless they like the pain - and may also develop a flinch or other problems.
Well, someone might practice more due to the challenge of overcoming the recoil. The challenge and desire to overcome can drive the practice sessions. As long as the body can keep up. I have to focus to not flinch after firing a few, but I used to hurt after 2 cylinders of 357. Now I can shoot a whole box of full power 357 or 100 38+P and it's not a huge deal. I am still sore the next day, but it shows that one can build up skill and physical stamina to shoot these loads. That said, I would not want to do so out of anything less than 21oz or so.

Ironically, my shooting has *helped* my pre-existing repetitive stress injuries to my right hand. It's like physical therapy (within limits of course). Wouldn't have thought it would help but it seems to.

There was a maxim mentioned earlier that anyone should be able to agree with though. The carry load must be 'reasonable' for the particular shooter involved. But I wager that many people can work up to more powerful loads than they think they can handle if they really want to.

I am going to carry the hottest load I think I can handle within reason.

But my next purchase will likely be an N-frame snub in 45 ACP with a 1 7/8 or 2 inch barrel to sidestep these issues. I looked on S&W's website and didn't see any, but I've seen at least one forum member post pics of such a gun. It looked just like the PC 327 snub except chambered in 45 ACP.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:20 PM
mnhntr mnhntr is offline
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in todays day and age you never know what could happen. i have been a public servant in 3 different career forms, from Army to Deputy to Paramedic and all 3 jobs taught me to be prepared for the worst possible outcome. i carry a 357 magnum for the sole purpose i believe it is as close to the best all around carry gun/round for any situation.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Yet, few people carry around the hottest loads these snubbies can handle, full power 357 magnum.
Your statement is incorrect. The vast majority of J frames out there are not .357.

I have carried for 40 years and never heard of a 3-3-3 rule, and it certainly does not affect how I CCW.
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Old 01-31-2009, 12:08 AM
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I practice with 158 357 in my 340pd, I love it and have become pretty good with that combo.I do however realize that at some point in my life this combo isnt going to be doable. When this decision has to be made is different for everybody. Ultimately you have to be happy,proficient and enjoy shooting a particular round or weapon.
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Old 01-31-2009, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Well, someone might practice more due to the challenge of overcoming the recoil. The challenge and desire to overcome can drive the practice sessions. As long as the body can keep up.
The 340pd is one where I either carry Buffalo Bore 158gr 37+p at 1000fps or the Remington 125gr sjhp at 1200fps. The Remington is akin to taking an aluminum bat and taking a full swing at a steel I beam. It's not the recoil on the lightweights, it's the vibration and the top strap hitting the base of the thumb (this is improved with a change in the grip)

Can I do it, yes. Do I have the desire to do it regularly...hell no. My aim for the rest of the range session goes south. The Buffalo Bore round mentioned above is the most that I can handle regularly, and I've made hand loads in .357 to practice with that chrono the same and hit to the same poi as the BB round.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:06 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pps:
The 340pd is one where I either carry Buffalo Bore 158gr 37+p at 1000fps or the Remington 125gr sjhp at 1200fps. The Remington is akin to taking an aluminum bat and taking a full swing at a steel I beam. It's not the recoil on the lightweights, it's the vibration and the top strap hitting the base of the thumb (this is improved with a change in the grip)
Yeah, those Remington's are so vicious out of my 360 PD that My Altamont laminated wood grips started to split the last time I shot them. Scandium snubs with full power .357s are fun to watch your friends shoot though.
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Old 01-31-2009, 07:26 AM
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I shoot 158s out of my 66 and 180s out of my Glock 27. I don't like the performance of the lighter loads in these calibers.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:11 AM
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Practice with light Target loads will do you a great deal of good and certainly no harm. But, you do need to practice with your "Carry" ammo, too. And, if you find yourself flinching or not getting the 'hits' the same way you do with the light loads then you need to try something else for a carry load.
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:30 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:
For the sake of discussion:

Some people justify certain carry arms.. using the 3-3-3 'rule'. That is, that the average gunfight lasts 3 shots, in 3 seconds, at a distance of 3 feet.
This is someones personal prejudice quoted as a "rule". The statistical average from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports for officer involved shootings is very different. It's also skewed by the results of large deparments like NYPD. Non law enforcement stats are probably different, but since no one collects them, they're unknown.

The average LE engagement takes place between 6 and 7 yards distance,at which point the good guys win about 50% of the time. NYPD stats show about 4.7 rounds per incident unless there's actually a gunfight. If so, the rounds per incident take a sharp uptick to 8 plus rounds, IIRC (thinking almost 12 rounds). Time????? Dunno.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:09 PM
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Good points.

I'm surprised that the good guys only win about 50% though. Aren't officers usually wearing a vest?
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:35 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Got interrupted before I could comment upon the won/lost ratio. The bad guy generally has the advantage because he knows the fight is about to start. Where things kick off at closer ranges the good guys are frequently hit before they can react. Action always beats reaction. The bad guys know about vests and at arms length & slightly further are going for head shots. If they get a leg instead, it's a hit, they'll just keep busting caps till someone wins.
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard: ...I'm surprised that the good guys only win about 50% though...
The number of LEOs who are actually Gun Guys/Gals is very low and getting lower and lower every Year. There was a time when most LEOs were ex-Military but that isn't the case that it was 25 Years ago or so.

First off, there are lots fewer ex-Military out there and many of them have simply had their fill of carrying a gun for a living and being a target for the bad guys. Three or Four or more trips to the "Sand Box" will do that to a fella(or a gal for that matter).

Lots of Departments are cutting their budgets and when Training is one of the easier places to cut then guess what? Also, when the 'Budget' has X number of Dollar$$$ in it and the price of ammo has gone up to double what it was just a couple of years ago, well, training takes another hit.
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:51 AM
Deltaboy Deltaboy is offline
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I have never heard of the 3-3-3 rule. Growing up folks who had privleges of getting a Aux Deptuty badge with the Sheriffs dept carried 1911's or Beautiful Browning Hi-Powers. LEO carried Colt or S&W in 4inch 357 with 2 speed loaders and an ammo pouch.
Deptuty Dog told me carry plenty of HP ammo on your person and in your Auto. Use at least a 357mag and keep a 12 gauge shotgun with 30 rounds in the Trunk.

I have at this time a 40cal Sigma, and a MAK in 9X18mm that I carry. I carry 2 extra mags just like I was taught to. Plus 2 more in the auto. I am working on getting a mariner shotgun for both our autos.
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deltaboy:
I have never heard of the 3-3-3 rule. Growing up folks who had privleges of getting a Aux Deptuty badge with the Sheriffs dept carried 1911's or Beautiful Browning Hi-Powers. LEO carried Colt or S&W in 4inch 357 with 2 speed loaders and an ammo pouch.
Deptuty Dog told me carry plenty of HP ammo on your person and in your Auto. Use at least a 357mag and keep a 12 gauge shotgun with 30 rounds in the Trunk.

I have at this time a 40cal Sigma, and a MAK in 9X18mm that I carry. I carry 2 extra mags just like I was taught to. Plus 2 more in the auto. I am working on getting a mariner shotgun for both our autos.
Deltaboy - Would you send me an email when you get a minute? I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. I'd appreciate it! My email address is chris@armedmissouri.com. Thanks!
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