A fellow cc holder in N.C. shared with me that he went through a license check last week being conducted by our Highway Patrol officers in Winston-Salem, N.C. he presented his drivers license and cc permit to the officer. The officer inquired as to where the gun was located? Was it loaded? When the officer asked to see the weapon the driver stated he would clear the weapon but the officer insisted on clearing it himself. When he was finished he recorded the serial number of the weapon and returned it to the driver. I agree, the officer has to protect himself and those he is assisting but this is strange compared to my limited experience when being checked. If there has been an offense committed the situation should and would change. Have any of you North Carolinians had this experience with any HP or other LEO? Just seemed a little odd to me.

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

...when you're pulled over by a police officer for any reason, you are obligated to advise him if you have a Concealed Pistol License, and if you are carrying. It's up to him as to how things proceed from there.

Since all handguns are registered in Michigan, the officer may run the serial number to see if the gun is properly registered.

Michigan law is such that routine license, insurance, registration, and sobriety checks can be conducted any time.

I live in Charlotte, NC. I have not had this particular experience before, but I don't think the officer did anything wrong at all. If I were an officer, I'd probably prefer to clear the weapon myself--just because someone has a CCW permit doesn't mean they won't do something stupid with a gun. The officer has no way of knowing how careful that person is. I personally would rather have the officer check the gun as I don't want to be handling a weapon AT ALL around cops unless it's at a shooting range.

The officer probably wrote down the serial # to check it against the stolen database. If they want to do that, it's fine with me. I bet they do that with every car's license plate at the checkpoint to check if they're stolen too.

I know there are cops who harass CCW holders, and I'm against that, but I don't see any wrongdoing from the facts you described.

Also, as the other poster pointed out, checkpoints are legal--the Supreme Court says so, so long as they follow certain requirements which I won't list here. It's basically to allow for public safety, i.e. DUI checkpoint. That's probably what it was. You'd be surprised how many other arrests they make at these checkpoints for all manner of things.

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Aaron Terry

Went thru a chkpoint in Eastern NC about a couple of months ago. I handed the officer my DLicense & CHP permit. He said "Perfect" handed it back to me and away I went, the whole thing took about 10secs. Three weeks ago I got pulled over for not signaling a turn, again I handed the officer my Dlicense & CHP permit together. He asked me "Did I have a weapon in the car?" I said "Yes Sir" He said "Next time you make a turn to use that signal, Have a good night sir" I said " Thank You and you do the same."

No need to notify a LEO, here in terrible NY.

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Sure you did

Morning Mike, would you care to elaborate on your statement please? I am unsure what you are saying and am interested in your input. Oh yea, Bigpappa, my experiences have been similar to the description you shared. Most officers I have encountered have seemed to consider a CC holder an ally instead of an adversary. May be that that is what I would like them to think as I am a law abiding citizen as opposed to being non law abiding.

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

i know that this subject has been discussed much here and on
other boards

i also know, being in NY, that there is no legal duty to inform
if you are carrying and you are stopped in your car

the few policemen that i have talked to about it have told me
that they would rather be informed as a "courtesy" by the
person/driver

i have also tried like crazy to find out if there is any way that
the police know, when they run your driver's license or registration,
if you have a "licencse to carry", as we call it here in NY

supposedly, our LTC is not linked to our driver/car info

i am undecided as to whether i would inform or not
i guess i will have to cross that bridge when i come to it

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bullets have lawyers attached

i picked up my sister from work a couple of months ago at about 3 a.m. While we were driving I made a lane change and was pulled over by the sheriff deputy that was behind me. In Kansas we do not have to tell them we are carrying. It comes up when they run us. She told me the reason she pulled me over was because I started changing lanes before signaling. I knew that wasn't the case and she was just checking if I was drunk. I told her I used to be a deputy as well and handed her my DL and insurance card. She told me I knew the real reason she stopped me then. It was to check and see if I was drunk. I laughed and told her that is what I thought. She went back to the car and ran my DL, came back and told me to have a good night. Not once did she ask if I was carrying a gun, which I was.


snakeman

The man was licensed. But recording the serial number of the gun constitutes an illegal "taking" IMHO.

I would make a written complaint and demand that all record of the gun, make ,model and serial number be purged from all records and databases.

I had a buddy a few years back in colorado whowas big into airsoft and he was on his way back from a match when he got pulled over by a state trooper, well his beretta airsoft pistol was by the seat, when the officer saw it, he drew on my buddy called for back up, laid him out on the shoulder of the road and searched the vehicle, after all was said and done they had apoligized for the mix up but they had a fellow officer shot to death in a traffic stop and in their defence the airsoft pistol looked very real

[QUOTE=smitholdtimer;1023678]A fellow cc holder in N.C. shared with me that he went through a license check last week being conducted by our Highway Patrol officers in Winston-Salem, N.C. he presented his drivers license and cc permit to the officer. The officer inquired as to where the gun was located? Was it loaded? When the officer asked to see the weapon the driver stated he would clear the weapon but the officer insisted on clearing it himself. When he was finished he recorded the serial number of the weapon and returned it to the driver. I agree, the officer has to protect himself and those he is assisting but this is strange compared to my limited experience when being checked. If there has been an offense committed the situation should and would change. Have any of you North Carolinians had this experience with any HP or other LEO? Just seemed a little odd to me.[/QUO

I live in NC and it is not against the law to have a loaded gun in the car so it is not the cops business whether or not it is loaded. For a drivers license check why should he give his gun to a cop to record ser#. The driver wasn't doing anything illegal, the cop had no reason to suspect the gun was stolen so in 1776 this would have been an illegal search and seizure. It is beyound my comprehension that law abiding gun owners would support that overbearing, arrogant cop. Larry

The driver’s license checks are at random in North Carolina. I’ve yet to see one done on a major highway thou it would be fun to see Interstate 40 backed up for miles. This is the first time I’ve head of a law enforcement officer recording a serial number that’s odd. I hand them my drivers’ license, vehicle registration, insurance card, and NC-CHP. They’ve always been professional and I’ve never had a problem. On occasion I’ve been asked “What are you packing today?” other than that no big deal.

I have been a LE for 14 years and I've NEVER had a problem with a licensed CCW permit holder. But, as for running the serial number on their gun, I regularly do it when time and situation allows and as a result I have recovered about a dozen stolen guns. In every case, the owner did not know it was stolen and our investigations revealed they had bought them used from various places.

I can assure you the "original" owner was glad to get them back. If you want to complain about that, go ahead. We have a special file for those complaints.

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I feel the LEO has no right/power to check the ser.# of the weapon.
As to the previous poster with the 'special file' for comments from the public he does'nt like, if we searched the homes and POVs of all LEOs we would find lot's of things of intrest to the public. Should we do this? Let's start with yours.
Comments welcome
Tom B

As yourang? stated there is no statutory requirement to notify a LEO that you are in possession of a handgun while driving here in NY.
I have been asked to show a license for handgun possession while out deer hunting, by conservation officers.

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Sure you did

Thanks for the feedback Tom.

Just for informational purposes to you, we check the serial numbers on lots of items like ATV's, motorcycles, TV's, computers, and guns. Often times that's how we recover stolen items. To my knowledge, we don't "record" them, we only check them against the database of stolen items.

As for comments we don't like, we get those all the time and most LE departments welcome them because it helps us to work better with the community. The "special file" I mentioned (tongue in check, I might add) is only for the stupid ones, and we get lots of those too. What do I mean by stupid ones? For example, these are the ones where people complain that we had no right to arrest them for the dope or alcohol or meth lab supplies they had in their car when the only reason we pulled them over was for speeding. Or the ones where they complain we had no right to the sieze the property they had in their possesion that happened to be stolen.

Lastly, as for your comment, "if we searched the homes and POVs of all LEOs we would find lot's of things of intrest to the public," I don't understand the point. As a LEO and a Christian, I believe I am held to a higher standard of conduct than most so you have my personal assurance there's nothing in my POV or home that I wouldn't want my wife, kids, sheriff or pastor to see. Just for you, Tom, I'd let you take a peek too.

So, in conclusion, checking serial numbers of firearms during certain situations just don't bother me none. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Seems just a tad over the top to me.

The reasonableness of the officer's actions is dependent upon the context of the situation. In general, Law Enforcement Officers have good reason to be concerned about weapons on people they are in contact with during an investigation or enforcement action on the street, and have every legal right to ask to see it, to control it, and make it safe while in their presence. Whether or not a person who refuses to comply with the officer's request would be subject to charges depends upon the laws where you are. However, it is not advisable to give an officer further reason for suspicion or fear, especially if he knows a gun is present. You may have only one contact with a law enforcement officer under these conditions once in your lifetime. He will have hundreds of such contacts during his career and the law of averages started catching up to him the day he graduated from the police academy. Consider that he has no idea of who you are or what your intentions are. Once the uncertainty is cleared up you will generally get a more harmonious outcome. Another point to remember is that there are 700,000 law enforcement officers in more than 17,000 agencies in this country. The laws, policies, training, and experience levels of officers and criminal activity varies to all extremes.
Once the officer has the weapon lawfully in his view it is perfectly lawful and reasonable for him to write down whatever he sees, including the serial number. Just like writing down your tag number, or the serial number of a TV in your back seat, etc. This inquisitive nature of law enforcement officers is how investigations are conducted and crimes uncovered-it is fundamental to policing. Your weapon was returned and you were allowed to proceed, nothing lost but a few minutes of your time.

at my old police dept at check points we just asked if they had a gun and if they did where was it and to keep there hands on the steering wheel.afetr making sure their OL was good we sent them on there way.we never wrote down a number.

I don't have a problem notifying that I have a loaded gun on me or in the vehicle (required here in Michigan) However I do have a problem handing over a loaded gun to anyone. Just because he/she is a LEO does not make then fully aware of the operation of all handguns. I would not wish to see a LEO have an AD because they were unfamiliar with my particular gun. I have met and known LEO's that did not know much about any gun except their duty gun.

+1 on that same as my older brothers agency ; )

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GOD/GUNS/GUTS>GET EM ALL

What, pray tell, is an "illegal 'taking?'"

Huh?

Be safe.

Feel free to drop by, Tom.

Be safe.

A couple things...First, Michigan's CCW law does not state the police may take your gun to run or record the serial number. As far as taking the gun for "officer safety", an officer must have reasonable suspicion to believe a person is armed AND dangerous before he can conduct a Terry pat down, so I don't see how he can "automatically" relieve you of your gun on a regular traffic stop with no other justification to do so. The law isn't clear on that (yet). So as long as you advise the officer you're carrying, you've complied with the law. I wouldn't make a big deal out of turning the gun over if he asks for it, but there's nothing in the law that I know of that says you can be compelled to do so.

Third, you're absolutely wrong with regard to Michigan law and sobriety checkpoints. They are absolutely NOT allowed under Michigan law. Ironically, the US Supreme court case that legalized them federally was a Michigan case. After the Supremes said that they were legal, Michigan changed it's mind and said "Nope, not here." I believe it was MI V. Sitz.

If the police do a traffic stop and seize your gun, that is illegal. That is an illegal taking. Similarly, collecting data or information that is not authorized by a specific law is an illegal taking of data that may be protected by another law.
Does the state require gun registration? If so, writing down the SN is authorized. But the NICS purchase [Brady] specifically does not allow retention of SN or names except when the check is failed and has become criminal.

Kansas, has no state gun registration and for the CCH [CCW] make, model or SN are NOT required. State law in Kansas allows an officer to "hold" a firearm during a stop if the officer feels it is advisable. In Kansas the law does not require that a CCH present or state they are licensed unless asked.
It is recommended [some states do require, getting one pattern is probably advisable].

But holding as gun for officer safety does not authorize taking data or making an illegal search. If you have a CCH and there is no other probable cause, why would an officer even want to see the gun, after all criminals carry guns a lot and have no license and commonly carry stolen weapons.

The stolen gun problem does exist and maybe a few lawful gun owners and licensed CCH might have a purchased a stolen gun, but doing a records check when no other cause except, "I can do it" constitutes creation of gun registration.

I have been a law enforcement officer for nearly 40 years and have no problems with law abiding citizens lawfully carrying weapons. I don't really want to fan the fire but there is a huge difference between search and seizure and writing down something you see. And running a serial number through NCIC to see if a weapon is stolen is not a search and seizure. Anybody who ever had a gun stolen would appreciate the irony in the discussion here. Whether a stolen weapon found in such a manner could be used as evidence against someone depends upon the legality of the manner in which the officer came to view weapon. There's also a huge difference between what an officer must do on the street to remain safe and the legal requirements for search and seizure of evidence that will later be used against a person in prosecution. This is what the search and seizure case law is all about. Every situation is different, and the laws in different jurisdictions vary. To suggest an officer has no authority to take control of a weapon he knows is present to ensure his own safety or the safety of others while he is present is ludicrous. In most instances if you have a CCW the officer will simply say thanks and send you on your way. In some instances he does not know what he has and his training should tell him to err on the side of caution. That does not mean he necessarily has the authority to conduct a warrantless search for a weapon that may later be used as evidence against you-these are two entirely different concepts. One has to do with prosecuting you for a crime and the other has to do with the officer going home alive at the end of his shift. Certainly we should be able to grasp the subtleties if we are CCW.

If a cop doing driver lic. check thinks that he has to take control of a pistol that a person who has a CCW permit has it tells me one of two things about the cop. Bear in mind that to have a CCW permit you have already been checked every way in the world to see if you are a good guy. One thing that might be the cops problem is he is scared to death and if he is that scared he needs another job. The second thing reason might be that he is an overbearing, arrogant bully that wants to show his authority. Larry

Having a CCW permit does NOT insure that you are a "good guy". However, if you honetly, truly believe it does, then you must, in turn, honestly, truly believe that EVERY LEO is a "good guy", because LEO's go through a far more in-depth and stringent background check than does a CCW permit holder. So, your argument means, by default, every LEO is a "good guy". And yet, you say:

There seems to be a bit of a flaw in your reasoning.
Gonzo
PS - In my humble experience, neither having a CCW permit or a government issued badge automatically makes you a guy guy.

Never stopped a car with 4 people inside it at 3 in the morning with your closest backup an hour away, have you?

THE STOP WAS FOR A DRIVER LICENSE CHECK. IT WAS NOT A FELONY STOP. There are at least 2 police are standing in the road stopping every car and checking drivers license. With decent cops you hand them your license and CCW permit and if your drivers license is not expired they hand them back to you and say "have a nice day". You say "thank you sir" and go on your way. EVERYBODY IS HAPPY. WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT THAT? Larry

I had the same situation outside of Ahoskie on Highway 13 over the 4th of July weekend. It was just dusky dark and they had set up a DUI stop. I was stone sober (19 months!) and I turned over my license and CCP and the young trooper looked me over and said "Thank you, Sir. Drive carefully". He handed my docs back over and I was on my way.

I know of 2 incidents where legally armed citizens handed their loaded guns to an officer that said he would unload it and they ended up with holes in their cars.

As a LE firearms instructor I can confirm that young officers coming into a law enforcement career these days are not necessarily "gun guys" like in times past. Young people, by and large, are not taught about firearms through hunting and plinking like they used to be and therefore do not have a overall familiarization with firearms in general. I would say as much as 50% to 60% of LE officer candidates have little to no hands on experiance with firearms and we have to teach them from scratch.

With that said, I would not necessarily be comfortable handing over my 1911 or my Walther PPK if he/she was not familiar with it.

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Just my opinion.............if an illegal concealed firearm is found the serial number should be run. But if a chp holder is legally carrying, I see no reason to touch the gun or run the number. I know it's done, just like running a plate, but not often.

Only time I’ve had an encounter while carrying was changing a flat tire on Hwy 1 South, just past Cary/Raleigh, NC. Had a county mounty roll up on me to help me out. I told him I was carrying concealed. He asked me to show him where it was (S&W 915, inside the pants holster), then asked to see my permit. After that, no problem. Helped me change the tire.

He looked all of twelve years old to me, so I’m figuring he was pretty new on the force.

Like others, I would be VERY nervous with anyone I don’t know handling one of my loaded firearms, even the police. When I lived in Seattle, a police officer accidentally shot out a sprinkler head at the gun range I went to.