No doubt that the vast majority of IL=equipped revolvers haven't yet and may never lock up on their own. But with those guns which have the IL-mechanism, the possibility always remains.

Some argue that the possibility of a bad primer, etc. remains as well and that is true. But you have to have primers in your cartridges for the gun to fire. You DON’T have to have internal locks. Some risks (having to rely on primers) you must accept. Others (having an internal lock in your gun) you can so easily avoid.

To those who proclaim that they've shot their IL-equipped gun a lot and haven't had a problem with the IL: Simply because your IL-equipped gun hasn't had a jam due to the lock AS YET, is NO assurance that it can't/won't happen. Many people have never had a car accident or a heart attack before, but tomorrow a whole lot of them will. One thing that you CAN count on: if you don't have a lock in your gun, you will never have to worry about a lock-related gun jam!

Some believe that minimizing possibilities for problems (not having the IL in a gun) where possible is a wise thing to do. I am among them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DHart,

My partner is one of those folks who dislikes the ILS in S&W revolvers, even though he would really like to own one of the 460's. There's a good chance he'll decide never to own one unless they eventually decide to offer a model without the ILS. I understand and certainly respect his choice.

In 2002 I bought two 629s from Smith, brand new. Both had to go back to the factory a couple times because the action kept locking up. Unfortunately I did not check to see if the lock was involved. Smith fixed them both, but the lock was not mentioned.

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SUMMARY RESULTS

Because I'm an engineer, and because I dearly like data, (and because this is the best forum on the web... thanks Para...) I painstakingly went through this thread and pulled together a spreadsheet which summarizes the ILIF posts contained herein (and contained in this thread only). If you want your ILIF counted in the next update of the spreadsheet, post it as described in the opening of the discussion. I may, at some point, look at other forum's discussions on the topic / dig through the numerous posts on S&W forum looking for distinct incidents.

My observations:
First and foremost -- sorry, I gotta say it...
A lot of folks would well benefit from reading the thread in its entirety before posting (pay particular attention to Osprey's original post reproduced below.)

All that being said, here's the data:

Total ILIF's: 20
S&W ILIF's: 19
Tarus ILIF: 1
Other ILIF: 0

Rated Caliber of ILIF's reported:
.32 H&R Magnum: 1
.38 Spl: 1
.38 +P: 2
.357 Magnum: 5
.45 ACP: 4
.44 Spl: 1
.44 Magnum: 5
.480 Ruger: 1

Number of ILIF's attributable to "hot loads"* by caliber:
.38 +P: 1
.45 ACP: 1
.44 Magnum: 1
Total: 3

My general observations having read all the posts in this thread:
1)It appears as though most of the S&W guns involved are lightweight J-frames shooting "normal" loads.
2)Lock or not is a personal preference. The general responses are:
"I ain't buyin' one."
"I bought one, but now wonder about reliability."
"I'll buy one and take out / modify the lock."
"I'll buy one and take my chances."

I will not enter this debate from any point other than a factual one. The facts are above.

I will, on a monthly (or so) basis, update the spreadsheet to add new, properly formatted posts on ILIF's. Please be nice and stick to the original intent of this thread. If you want to discuss the lock, please revive one of the many existing non-scientific, opinionated, threads threads on the forum.

*hot loads are subjective opinion (in most cases, I counted it a "hot load" if the round is near the rated capacity of the firearm... not from a scientific burst pressure standpoint, but if it's a .38 +P, and you're shooting 158gr .38 +P's, you're probably close to the max rated pressure.) I would love to learn more about rated pressures / pressures generated by a particular load / powder, etc.... if anyone would like to educate me

quote:

Here's the format I would like followed while posting your ILIFs.

Gun Make: (ILIFs don't just happen to S&Ws)

Gun Model: (For S&Ws, please include engineering - "dash" - number.)

Age of Gun: (Number of rounds fired can be listed here as well.)

Options on Gun: (Described any parts that were replaced or gunsmithing applied to the gun; grips, "trigger job," sights, springs, etc.)

Description of ILIF: (Date of ILIF? What were you doing with the gun when the ILIF occurred? How did your gun fail to function as a result? If ILIF occurred while shooting, please include as many details about the ammo as you can recall.)

Confirmation: (How are you certain that the integral lock caused the ILIF?)

Corrective Action: (Were you able to clear the problem and how? Often times the corrective action can serve as the "Confirmation.")

Manufacture Contacted?: (Yes or No. If yes, what did the manufacture claim caused the problem?)

Again, I want to keep this post free of unnecessary cross talk.

Nice work, Gov (Note, I didn't say, "nice government work )...

sprey

A definate good read. Thanks for the data/info too.

quote:

Originally posted by redeux:
OH HELL ! THIS IS SCARY!
had a few extra minutes , so i thought id check my new 638...
it locks ...
but it won't unlock ...
seems as tho the supplied keys are dead soft and distort after a single turn to the left , so.... the gun won't unlock with the enclosed keys ... had to find an older set that were properly hardened to unlock the 638...!!! AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

I ain't touching mine! It's going to the Shop!
not even going try it.

As much as Smith & Wesson was willing to bend to potential litigation by including the internal lock I wonder that some CPA/Attorney at corporate has not yet pointed out that a locked up weapon due to design flaw is REALLY a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Gov, your work is excellent and should be forwarded to the powers at Smith & Wesson as an outcome based piece of evidence rather than episodes related second hand that may or may not have happened.

This is new to me. All my Smiths are older and none has the IL. At this point I would not purchase a self defense weapon with this kind of record.

I posted that probability a while back. If I draw my pistol to stop some low-life from killing me or someone else and my pistol has locked up by itself, that's gotta be a helluva lawsuit waiting to happen. I hope I'd still be alive to collect the award.

quote:

Originally posted by billwil4:
I posted that probability a while back. If I draw my pistol to stop some low-life from killing me or someone else and my pistol has locked up by itself, that's gotta be a helluva lawsuit waiting to happen. I hope I'd still be alive to collect the award.

My real question, I guess, is whether there is anyone on S&Ws legal staff who can connect the dots? Based on this thread going back to 2005 and ten pages long I guess the answer is "no". Since I don't own an IL Smith I don't have a dog in this fight. However plenty of off duty police and licensed citizens do.

Years back Blockbuster Video stores in Texas put up the required "no concealed handgun" sign as provided by state law. Someone sharp at corporate headquarters ordered the signs removed and policy changed. Whoever they were they saw a legal storm brewing over an otherwise legally concealed weapon banned from a future crime scene. It takes thinking forward not what happened in the past.

A little birdy tells me that we're being heard, loud and clear.

Being heard is one thing, being heeded is another.

quote:

Originally posted by Goodtime Charlie:
Being heard is one thing, being heeded is another.

We have movement in that area as well.

Well alright! Keep us posted Para!

My question is this: If they remove the lock and I have a MP 340 with the IL, will they remove it?

I had a MP 40c that I wanted them to put the mag disconnect on and they wouldn't do it. So if they wouldn't put the safety on a gun, will they take a safety off a gun??

I finally got rid of the MP 40c, but lost my tail, if I lose my tail on another S&W that's it for me with them...