quote:

Originally posted by sdkidaho:
So basically it's fairly easy to remove, but the downside is a hole that crud might get into.

Anyone have a plug for that hole, or an idea for one?

You might try JB Weld. Link

I just picked up a new 22-4 right after Christmas, and since it is a big, heavy revolver and I don't shoot hot loads in it, I was going to leave the IL alone. After rereading some of the stories in this forum last night, I decided the lock has to go after all.
Off came the side plate, and then the mainspring and hammer were removed. Not wanting to reassemble the lock, I cleaned the inside of the revolver with MEK, taped off everything but the "tit" on the lock flag, and used a Dremel to grind the "tit" flush with the inside surface of the flag.
You don't need a bench grinder - the little "tit" is pretty small. I'd grind for a few seconds and put my finger on the flag to cool the metal (never was very hot, so didn't affect any heat treat or metallurgical properties). After the flat cooled, I'd hit it again with the Dremel (using a 1/2 inch diameter by 1/8 thick grinding wheel) for a few seconds, and cool again. In less than 5 minutes, the "tit" was gone. I stripped all the tape off, made sure there were no grinding particles inside, and reassembled the gun.
Works like a charm, and best of all, I can lock the gun and it still works. I realize that I've probably messed up the warranty and will probably have to have S&W "fix" the revolver if I ever decide to sell it, but for now, I no longer have to worry about that darned IL!
Don't be afraid of the revolver - if you are, buy Jerry Miculek's Trigger Job DVD and have at it. I was afraid to disassemble my Model 60-1 (no IL!) until I viewed the video, and taking the revolver apart wasn't a big deal. Reinstalling the rebound slide and spring is the only difficult task if you disassemble your revolver farther than I did to "adjust" the IL, but the only caution I can give you for the rebound slide and spring is to watch that darned spring - mine bounced around the room a couple of times but I always found it.

quote:

Originally posted by sdkidaho:

quote:

Originally posted by...




That looks like too much metal for a Dremel. I am going to use a bench rinder on mine and when I get 99% of the metal remover I'll go to the Dremel. A word of caution, goimg too fast may case the metal to heat up and heating can change the temper of the metal.

I was reading an article while searching on the ILF and found this at gunblast.com:

"If it really bothers you knowing that it is there, it can be easily removed in about five minutes without altering anything in the weapon, and re-installed later if desired. Just remove the side plate and the hammer, and pluck it out. Personally, I do not use the lock, but it bothers me not at all being there."

Article found here: http://www.gunblast.com/SW625Mountain.htm

So is that true? Is it really that easy to remove or do you have to grind off that nub like in the pictures above?

If it's really as easy to remove as the guy in the article eludes to then I'm ready to go buy a S&W scandium and have at it.

This is exactly what I did to my lone Smith that has the lock. Although I have several other prelock J frames, I liked the M&P340 so well that I simply could not resist buying one for everyday pocket carry. I used a cut off wheel on the dremel to remove that little tab. It really was simple, and you would never even know the lock had been disabled by holding or looking at the exterior of the gun. I would not be at all pleased by removing the entire flag, leaving the gaping hole behind. The technique described in the above pics works like a charm.

While some gunsmiths refuse to disable the internal lock, my local gun store directed me to a gunsmith who agreed to do the job, provided I signed a waiver of liability. I pick it up today, and while $60 may sound steep, it's worth it to me so I don't have to worry about inadvertent failure in my carry gun (a 640). I suggest talking with gunshops, who have an interest in helping you if they want to sell new S&W revolvers.

If there is someone here that actually has someone they speak to at S&W, do you think it possible that S&W could make a kit so that the IL could be removed, making it an option rather than a requirement? Even if they only sold the kits to gunsmiths and you had to have it done by a professional, at least that would be something.

Osprey... excellent move with the link from the Modern Revolvers folder to this thread! Thank you. I'm sure many who visit that folder and never come to this folder will benefit from you having created the link! Bravo.

This 629 pd worked fine with medium loads but did a flag up partial engagement with heavier ones. Simple manipulation of trigger and hammer would set it right. It appears that the hammer was bouncing back from recoil and the lock did the same impinging on the hammer face but not entering the slot.

Thanks for posting, Mike.

mcumpston,

That seems to be the failure mode of mine as well.

quote:

Originally posted by sdkidaho:
If there is someone here that actually has someone they speak to at S&W, do you think it possible that S&W could make a kit so that the IL could be removed, making it an option rather than a requirement? Even if they only sold the kits to gunsmiths and you had to have it done by a professional, at least that would be something.

I doubt it. I'm really pissed off at S&W right now. I just got off the phone with them this morning and gave them an ear full about the internal locks and what I thought about them. I asked them if I could get a refund on the revolvers I have purchased with the ILs on them. They flat out told me no way; even for a revolver I just purchased 3 weeks ago and has not been fired yet.

I am angry as hell with them. They gave me the usual BS about how the ILs have been produced for 10 years now and they know of no failures or lock ups due to the ILs. They said that I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet. I told the customer service rep to knock off his BS and that I don't believe "everything" I read online. Rather, I stated that I am talking about one particular phenomena that has several documented cases.

The S&W rep pushed me on where I was reading about such IL failures. When I told him the S&W forum, he kind of chuckled. I asked him was all of this IL failures just internet BS and fairy tales. Of course, the rep said "yes, that is exactly what it is". The rep also said they don't give refunds on guns that function properly and that revolvers with ILs manufactured in the last 10 years all function properly.

Believe what you want, but this particular rep was a total jerk. He laughed at me and all of us on the S&W forum. He basically said that we are all paranoid about nothing and that we live in fairy tales. He was so dam rude and smug that I will possibly never buy another S&W revolver (with or without the cursed IL). This company seems to not give two hoots about its customers. I'm done with S&W unless they make this IL thing right!

quote:

Believe what you want, but this particular rep was a total jerk. He laughed at me and all of us on the S&W forum. He basically said that we are all paranoid about nothing and that we live in fairy tales. He was so dam rude and smug that I will possibly never buy another S&W revolver (with or without the cursed IL). This company seems to not give two hoots about its customers. I'm done with S&W unless they make this IL thing right!

i have decided to replace my 442 and 638(unfired nib) with rugers or some other brand of revolver/auto...
i've had enough of Stink & Weasels attitude and their "we've got your money , so s**** you" mindset...
this is after 40 years of owning S&W products...

"I asked them if I could get a refund on the revolvers I have purchased with the ILs on them."

I missed the posting where you described the failures you experienced with the ILS-equipped S&W revolvers you've bought. How did they occur, how did S&W explain their occurrence and what did S&W do to resolve them?

quote:

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
"I asked them if I could get a refund on the revolvers I have purchased with the ILs on them."

I missed the posting where you described the failures you experienced with the ILS-equipped S&W revolvers you've bought. How did they occur, how did S&W explain their occurrence and what did S&W do to resolve them?

Fastbolt,

You didn't miss any posting of my personal IL failures because I never uploaded such a post. I never knew about the IL failures really being a problem until I spent the last couple of weeks on the forum reading through the accounts mentioned here. There was also another forum where the same problems regarding the IL on S&W revolvers were being linked as the causes of gun lockups.

Then, I decided to visit some of my shooting buddies and also some gunsmiths that I have know for years. Two of them told me that they personally had experienced their revolvers failing due to the design of the ILs. The gunsmiths, who are much more mechanically oriented than myself, convinced me of how an IL induced lockup was mechanically possible. The bottom line was that I realized the unsoundness of the ILs and the danger they pose to anyone using such a revolver for self-defense. I immediately was upset at S&W for going to such a stupid "solution" for legal reasons or whatever BS they like to spout. This is obviously, as many of you already know, not a solution but rather the introduction of a huge potential problem that could ultimately cost own their life.

I was shocked how the S&W rep kept justifying S&W's decision to make revolvers with ILs on them. When I pressed him further for such justification, he gave me the usual jargon of making guns more safe for little children. What a crock of crap and most of us know it. I told him that an external lock on the gun could just as well keep a revolver safe from a little child. I kept making the point the the IL introduces a very unsafe risk to a revolver that an external lock, or a lock box etc, does not. At that point, the rep was silent and couldn't disagree with what I was saying because he knew he had no case.

That's when I asked for a refund for revolvers that I have purchased with the ILs on them. I was specifically talking about a few revolvers in question that have never been shot. What really shocked me was that S&W would not issue a refund even for a revolver I just bought 3 weeks ago that again is NIB and has never been fired. This rep's attitude was totally arrogant and smug and he treated me like a mentally ill idiot because I dared to come to the conclusion that ILs pose a grave threat to their respective gun owners when those revolvers are used for self-defense purposes.

Lastly, the guy just told me the usual garbage about how all S&W revolvers now have the lifetime warranty and if my revolvers should ever malfunction......That's when I cut the rep off and told him that my S&W revolvers with ILs on them come with a lifetime endangerment to my life and that's why I no longer wanted them. His last resort was that S&W is not the only company with ILs on their revolvers. Specifically, he mentioned Taurus does the same. That's when I said: "Oh I see, just because Taurus is acting stupid that's justifies S&W acting stupid". I told the guy I was done with S&W and how I have always been a loyal S&W guy and good customer up until this issue. He just chuckled and that was the end of it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: socrates007,

Okay. Thanks. I thought I'd missed an instance of someone experiencing an ILS problem (which does interest me).

I can understand your ire at having bought something you regret buying after having learned more details of one of its features. However, I'm also not surprised that the company wouldn't refund your money, either. It's not like you'd actually been experiencing an actual problem.

The ILS isn't something I'd choose to have on a revolver if I were given another option, and perhaps S&W will eventually not only realize, but accept, that a number of their customer base may feel strongly about this issue. maybe we'll see how well the non-ILS equipped M40's are in demand, especially if they ever introduce an Airweight version (which I'd buy right now ).

FWIW, I've also asked someone st the factory if any of the LE contract revolvers which normally have the lock (agencies buying J-frames for issued secondary weapons, for example) are being produced without the ILS, wondering if any LE agencies had concerns with the ILS. I was told no, that such LE guns have been, and are being, equipped with the ILS just like the commercial guns.

I've been hoping that rumors of a potential shift in company thinking regarding the potential introduction of a limited line of non-ILS guns, or else guns with a differently designed ILS (less visible and which functions differently), might have some basis in reality ... but who knows?

Nice hearing from you. Thanks.

Just got an e-mail from S&W's "market research" asking me about my S&W revolver purchase(model 329 Air-Lite PD). I let them know in both the "survey" they are conducting(done by "surveymonkey.com") and in a separate e-mail(for documentation)that I consider the internal lock mechanism an ill-conceived device. (I still have trouble believing that law enforcement officers use S&W revolvers with this internal lock device!) In fact I DO NOT believe it;so any LEOs out there wanna make me a believer!? Make my day...
Again,for documentation,I asked for a total refund of my purchase price;and also for any and all advice,suggestions,kits for removal of internal lock,and ideas for what to do if and when the internal lock disables my weapon.
Anyone else get this S&W e-mail survey?
Maybe Smith&Wesson is FINALLY getting the message from the consumer,the BUYERS of their revolvers,the folks who make it possible for them to get a paycheck,that WE DON'T WANT NO STINKIN' INTERNAL LOCKS ON OUR REVOLVERS.
There are plenty of external locking devices to be had and used instead of one that may render the weapon inoperable(even the POTENTIAL of the internal lock causing a lock-up is enough to deter a "thinking" individual from seriously using these revolvers in any type of self-defense situation.
Betcha a nickel I don't hear from ANY law enforcement folks who use these internal-lock revolvers. Any takers?
Regards,
Mike
PS:Please do not deride me for not posting my own personal experience with the failure of this internal lock on S&W revolvers;I have none. And save us both time and effort by NOT writing about how this is a "non-issue". I only hope I have,in some small way,helped to bring attention to a mistake, an ill-conceived and potentially fatal design flaw in S&W revolvers.