Is that small post built into the "locked" flag? If it is, then couldn't the flag just be removed? It appears that the keyed cam assembly is not dependent on the flag to remain in place.

Any thoughts on this?

Update, she's back from Smith & Wesson

Okay, after a lot of internal debate, I sent my 22-4 back to Smith & Wesson to have the lock "fixed," they received it 5-31-2006 and sent it back 6-2-06. Talk about a fast turnaround. Anyway, they did not specify what was wrong, only that the hammer was replaced and the lock repaired. They did not shoot it. I'll hit the range later this week.

Robert

Gun Make: Smith & Wesson

Gun Model: Model 325PD Revolver - 2 3/4" HIVIZ®

Age of Gun: 2 Months, approx. 400 rounds of target ammo (gun malfunctioned on first shot of +P ammo used)

Options on Gun: Hogue rubber grips

Description of ILIF: I went to the range to shoot my carry ammo, CorBon DPX 45ACP +P, and it locked up after the first shot. Here's how it went: I shot the first round, and everything looked OK. I pulled back the trigger, and it locked up halfway back. I could not move the trigger nor the hammer nor the cylinder. I did not notice if the lock flag was partially raised.

Confirmation: At the time I had no way of knowing if it was the internal lock.

Corrective Action: I was able to open the cylinder normally, but the trigger and hammer stayed firmly locked. I removed the ammo in the metal moonclip from the cylinder. I then slammed the cylinder shut and the hammer and trigger released. Note that if I had not removed the ammo, the gun would have probably gone off in my hands. It did not lock up again, but I did not shoot any more +P rounds, as I was worried it would happen again. Then the gun began light-striking every 2nd to 3rd shot. It was then I suspected something had happened that had caused internal damage.

Manufacture Contacted?: Yes, the gun was sent back to Smith for repair. Here is text from my letter describing the issue:

---------------

quote:

Sirs,

The enclosed gun is being sent in for repair for two reasons. First, the trigger and hammer locked up unexpectedly once. I was also not able to rotate the cylinder; however, I was able to open the cylinder. Once I shut the cylinder forcefully, the trigger and hammer unlocked. Secondly, the gun is now getting a lot of light strikes (2 or 3 out of each set of 6) when shot double-action. The light strikes are more frequent when I flinch a bit during the shot and/or pull the trigger very slowly.

Thanks.

---------------

Smith & Wesson repaired the gun in a timely manner and this was the text of the description of the repair:

---------------

quote:

ORDER # 570719
SERIAL # CJN6XXX

((return address was listed here))

The following characteristic(s) have been examined and adjusted to our standards:

CHARACTERISTIC DESCRIPTION

CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: LOOSE SCREWS

REPAIRED: REPLACE HAMMER

REPAIRED: REPAIR LOCK

If you have any questions regarding the work performed, please feel free to contact Smith & Wesson Product Service Dept. at (800) 331-0852. It has been a pleasure to serve you.

---------------

My original description of the problem made no mention of LOOSE SCREWS.

I bought a new 431PD a couple of weeks ago. Took it out to the range and shot 8 rounds through it before the flag portion of the lock next to the hammer broke completely off the gun. As luck would have it, the broken piece fell into the action and jammed the revlover. The gun still shoots, but the lock no longer works. I'm waiting on the S&W shipping label now to return the gun.

Gun Make: S&W 327

Gun Model: 327 (2" barrel)

Age of Gun: 1 day, about 60 rounds through it.

Options on Gun: Straight from the factory, not extra options

Description of ILIF: I purchased the firearm and took it to the range that day. I first cleaned it (per the owners manual) and ensured it was in working order. I put about 30-40 rounds of .38 through it and then moved up to Winchester 'white box' .357. I loaded eight rounds into the cylinder and fired the first two with no problems. When I attempted to pull the trigger and fire the third round the weapon failed to fire.

The hammer had stuck near the back position, but not fully back. I was unable to determine if it had gone all the way back and was on it's way forward or if it had jammed on the way back. I attempted to ease the hammer back and forward with no luck. As there was a live round chambered I attempted to open the cylinder with no luck.

After fiddling with the weapon for about 5 minutes I noticed that the internal lock flag was slightly up. I retrieved my lock keys and attempted to unlock the lock with no luck. I then locked the lock and was able to unlock it, lower the hammer and open the cylinder.

This failure happened two weeks ago, so around October 1st.

Confirmation: I am 100% certain that the failure was caused by the lock. The flag was partially up and opening the lock cleared the failure.

Corrective Action: (Were you able to clear the problem and how? Often times the corrective action can serve as the "Confirmation.")

Manufacture Contacted?: Yes, S&W was contacted. They stated that the likely problem was that the spring on the lock needed to be stronger. I asked if they could disable the lock entirely and they said no. I asked if it could be disabled and they said yes, but that they couldn't do it. They also said that if I had the lock disabled, and sent the gun in for service that they would re-enable it.

S&W sent me a shipping label and I mailed the defective firearm back to them on Saturday the 14th. No word form them yet, but they said turnaround is usually 6-8 weeks. That's a long time to wait.

Gun: 629-6
Date: First Monday in August,05 - just before noon.
Age: I had just turned 57... the gun was still new on the pusher's shelf

ILIF: The Integral Lock Inductively Failed to keep me from buying said firearm and bring it home to join some similarly adorned siblings, where it has fluorished and worked, as they have, flawlessly, my poor marksmanship not withstanding.

Really, when will this die? If you are really concerned about a ftf due to a malfunction, let's chronicle our experiences with bad commercial ammo. In a horrible encounter with a bad guy, you are much more likely to have a dud round... potentially making you just as daid as you'd be if you failed to unlock your firearm. I really care about all of you guys, and I hope you understand my concern here... it's just a matter of statistics... flavored by good engineering. I've had my share of duds... and bad primers... and never had a mechanical problem I didn't cause.

Stainz

I am a recent convert to the no locks on my S&Ws. Never was a big deal to me, I have a number of older Smiths, none with the lock, but always felt that, should I see one I couldn't live without, I'd buy it and ignore the lock.

Further I read the article referred to and, a bit smugly I guess, figured all this lock malfunction stuff was just people complaining about a non-existent problem.

Then, three weeks ago, in one of the Concealed Carry classes I teach on weekends, a lady had a Taurus with a lock that locked as we were firing it, never to work again. In a self defense situation, the little snubbie was now just a rock.

OK, it wasn't a Smith. But, if it could happen for some reason absolutely unrelated to the shooter with a Taurus, it could happen with a Smith.

I converted on the spot. Never will any self defense gun I own have an internal lock.

Bob

sprey notes added

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Osprey,

My Lock Experience:

Last July I bought a NIB 4" 629 Mountain Gun made in 2002, which had a performance center action job. It had been unsold in a gunshop inventory along with three others they bought in a special deal, The price was excellent $525 OTD (basically the wholesale price) The gun balances great and is very accurate. I have not used the lock though and have no use for it.

About two weeks after I bought the gun I used the key to try the lock.
The lock locked fine.

I then tried to unlock the lock and the flag stayed up.. I locked and unlocked the gun, the lock still stayed up. I took my thumb and pushed down on the flag after turning the key to the unlock position. I was able to push the lock down easily and the gun unlocks.

I can also raise the lock with my finger when the hammer is cocked and the flag will stay up and lock the hammer, I can push it down and the hammer is unlocked.

I called S&W, they immediately sent me a prepaid shipping label. To date I have not sent the gun in. I have fired about 2000 target loads through it and its an excellent range gun

I will not carry it either with a fix from S&W, or the way it is now.
When I get around to it I will remove the sideplate, and fix it the only way I will ever trust it, That is too remove the lock from the gun completely.

I am carrying a 642 with a lock as I type this, problem with the 642 is that it doesnt have an external flag and the only way to check it is to pull the trigger, but in a couple thousand rounds I haven't had a problem with the lock, and the detent is very positive. I will also eventually remove the lock from my 642 as well.

The reason Smiths have this particular lock is because the US company Safety Hammer, bought the company from the Brits who signed the Clinton agreement with HUD. Safety hammer invented and holds the patent for the locking system, and I suspect wants to sell it to other companies. They have had no takers so far.

But Ruger, and Taurus are also putting built in locks on their guns, can they lock themselves or cause problems??? Well they are mechanical devices, and they can fail as well. Its just a matter of time before we hear about it.
__________________

quote:

Originally posted by arc2x4:

The reason Smiths have this particular lock is because the US company Safety Hammer, bought the company from the Brits who signed the Clinton agreement with HUD. Safety hammer invented and holds the patent for the locking system, and I suspect wants to sell it to other companies. They have had no takers so far.

I think that it would be a good idea to start referring to these guns with the built-in lock as Saf-T-Hammer revolvers, as if it were a different brand, NOT Smith & Wesson.

My First on ONLY Internal Lock Failure.

Actually since the lock "worked" is it a failure?

Gun Make: Smith & Wesson
Model: 340PD (I can't find a dash#)

Age of Weapon: New (3 days old got it wed had to wait till sat to shoot it) Cleaned after purchase as per instructions!

Factory options only

Description of ILIF: After firing approx 20 rounds of target 130gr FMJ .38 Special I switched to carry ammo for testing 129gr Hydra Shock .38 Special +P. With the higher recoil the weapon fired ONCE then appeared locked. As this is hammerless design there is no flag.

Confirmation came from as Erich said. Had to first LOCK then UnLock with the factory key.

Fired the last four rounds from that loading and reloaded. Third round in second load would not fire. Same resolution Lock then Unlock.

Tested .357 Magnum low-recoil 130gr Hydra-Shock.
Result: Fire a round-Cycle lock.... Fire a round-Cycle Lock.

Took weapon home and cleaned. Started doing research on the net. At this point I found that this was a govt. "deal" with S&W and all they would do was return the lock to factory specs. As this was intended to be a carry gun I went about finding a non-factory fix. I stumbled across this forum and the pictures posted here showing the lock mechanism. Having done a lot of my own smithing over the years and not being afraid of disassembly I took matters into my own hands.

I made a slightly different decision on the fix though. As this gun has NO visual flag I felt that leaving the lock intact with the "tit" removed might give someone a false sense of security I removed the internal lock entirely. The parts are in the little bag with the keys in the box and if I should ever sell the weapon I will first send it to a S&W authorized repair center to have it replaced and set to factory specs (at my expense) The extra hole does not bother me as this is a concealed carry weapon not a show piece.

Unintentional Byproduct: It was the research on this issue that brought me to this forum and eventual joining. This has gained me lots of new friends and a huge resource of information.

So I guess this failure was a good thing for me. Also glad it happened "at the range" and not on the street.

I still wish I knew how to edit my posts. As is I will just add this.

I have since purchased a 640 new in box and it got the same treatment before even getting to the range. I will NEVER trust my life to one with an intact lock if I can avoid it.

Well, I can say that since my breakage and return to S&W I've had no problems. The replacement lock also doesn't look like the pot metal lock that came with the original revolver. But, I can say that several police friends of mine are sweating over the fact that mine even broke. Several are carrying new S&W's with the lock, and all are having second thoughts about doing so. I can also say that this is the first and last S&W revolver with a lock that I'll buy.

This topic should be out there for all to see!

I see that our thread here on this forum is making it's rounds on the gunbroker.com forum
http://forums.forthehunt.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=237478
Word of mouth or the cyber equivalent sure gets around.

Speaking of which those guys on the gunbroker.com forum could pass for us. When I first visited there I had to check twice to make sure I wasn't here instead. Good bunch of people from what I can tell to. They sure do a lot more posting than we do here. It not unusual to see people with 10,000 to 15,000 post.

Smitty

I've had 3 329s. Two of them self engaged the internal lock.

The first one was in Late 2006 -- Nov or Dec time frame -- had some other problems with the gun -- S&W fixed the lock along with the other probs under warranty. Not sure how many rounds expended when lock engaged.

The second one was on Apr 5,2007 (the gun was purchased on Dec 28, 2006. It had 835 rounds of 240/250gr JHPs/SWCs at 1,150 to 1200 fps when the lock engaged (twice).

During routine maintenace, the flag fell out along with the transfer bar and the sideplate on both of the ones I still have. The flags remain in a little plastic box. These guns are either on my person or in the safe at all times. My grown children know that the IL has been inactivated, and if anything happens to me, to get the flags reinstalled before disposing of the guns.

I carry (and shoot) one of the 329s daily -- mostly woods bumming. The weight to horsepower ratio is perfect for my purposes. I also have a pre-lock 629 Mt Pistol that I have carried just to see if the weight of the 329s really made a differnce to me -- it does.

FWIW,

Paul