Also, I should note here that, given that I only owned the pistol for approx. 30 min., I only had time for one other opinion on the matter. Luckily, I didn't have to have a gunsmith or Taurus tech look at it.

So . . . the Taurus lock didn't cause the failure of the cylinder to open.

I would concede that the cylinder problem may be unrelated.

Although I have listened to the owner of a Taurus revolver equipped with their ILS claim that his gun's hammer lock turned/engaged itself under recoil, an improperly fitted part sounds more likely responsible for what was described in the instance of this thread's example.

I've had virtually the same problem occur ... based upon the poster's description ... when a hammer sear was stubbing on the trigger in an older M19 revolver (without the ILS).

Well, either way, I wound up with a 642 (no lock)... It's really what I wanted anyway.

When I first got my 329PD I had ILIF with heavy 300 grain loads. When disassembled the spring for the flag was very weak, a little bending of the spring ear and the problem went away, but it was enough for me to want the probably fixed permanently.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that I ran into the other day. There are a lot of posts recommending to grind off the little tab and then order the spare lock flag/spring from S&W so if you sell/trade it down the road you can put the new parts to change it back to factory condition.

I attempted this the other day and S&W will no longer sell the parts to the ILS. I was told they would not sell the parts and they were all listed as Factory Install Only on the parts look up and it would have to be sent in to have S&W install them. So now if you grind off the tab, it has to go back to S&W if you want to put it back to original before selling or trading it. With the costs of overnight shipping handguns now days plus whatever S&W charges for return shipping, parts plus the installation of said parts, it could easily be a couple hundred bucks to get one put back to original.

Pretty smart move by S&W you have probably thousands of ILS's flag tabs ground down on their guns and now they get to make even more $ when people find out they have to send them in to have them put back. The liability of selling/trading one with the ILS defeated would be huge. Pretty crappy move for customers, considering you can order the safety parts for their 1911's and all sorts of other parts that need gunsmith fitting, but the ILS parts are factory install only.

Toddm,

That really is a dick move by S&W. But I still ground off the IL on my PC 327 no less, warranty be damned. I'd rather risk losing some coin over it than the other potential. I don't ever plan on selling or trading a gun though.

Someone paranoid enough to get a gun for defense is not going to ignore the potential for IL failure at the worst possible time. I poke fun, but seriously, why wouldn't one fix the issue given what is known about it?

For sure, with so many documented problems esp. for the lightweight frames running high power loads if you are going to use it for anything but a range gun I myself would fix the problem. I shudder to think how many airlight frames are out there that people are depending on for defense guns that could lock up with weak ILS springs. That seems to be the culprit in most cases and was in my 329.

I just thought I'd mention to those that might be thinking of doing it, or buying, that it won't be a simple $10 part order called in to S&W to put the gun back to stock. I just shipped a handgun in for some custom work and it was $80 UPS to ship it, they have jacked their shipping rates way way up for fuel surcharges now like 36%. I'd be willing to bet that if S&W is going to be this way about the ILS parts, the labor charge could be really ugly.

I'd love to see a aftermarket company make a nice matte blued version to replace the flag without the tab on it, but I'm sure the liability will keep that from happening.

Another interesting tidbit, take it as you will, S&W also now want's your guns serial # when you order parts, model # is no longer good enough. I'm sure they would say it's to ensure you get the right parts, but I would not be surprised if they are tracking parts by gun serial #/owner too.

quote:

Another interesting tidbit, take it as you will, S&W also now want's your guns serial # when you order parts, model # is no longer good enough. I'm sure they would say it's to ensure you get the right parts, but I would not be surprised if they are tracking parts by gun serial #/owner too.

FWIW, S&W has often asked this info, even of armorers. Being naturally curious, I've asked different folks the reason upon occasion.

The answer has always been that they were seeing one or another revision listed in their computer which was denoted by serial number/production period, and which might affect parts application. In one case I asked for specifics and was told that the specific model number pistol for which I was ordering some parts (including a couple of different rated extractor springs) had a couple of revisions. One of the revisions included a change in slide mass within a certain serial number range which might affect which extractor spring would best suit my needs, and which wasn't listed in the published (or online) parts catalog. It was additional info contained in their in-house parts computer listings. The parts person was just trying to make sure I ordered the best part for my needs.

I've had this happen with other parts, as well. Revisions happen all the time.

FWIW, last time I ordered a locking arm and torque lock spring (ILS parts mentioned as the 'flag' & its spring in these postings) I noticed that the torque lock spring was listed as being revised on the invoice. Not unusual for even common mag springs to be frequently revised, though.

As far as tracking parts ordered for individual guns? Well, maybe if someone ordered half a dozen of the same parts for the same gun it might occur to someone at the factory that maybe something was wrong with the individual gun which the factory might be better able to correct for the owner, and for which they might want to offer to correct for the owner.

quote:

Originally posted by Toddm:
When I first got my 329PD I had ILIF with heavy 300 grain loads. When disassembled the spring for the flag was very weak, a little bending of the spring ear and the problem went away, but it was enough for me to want the probably fixed permanently.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that I ran into the other day. There are a lot of posts recommending to grind off the little tab and then order the spare lock flag/spring from S&W so if you sell/trade it down the road you can put the new parts to change it back to factory condition.

I attempted this the other day and S&W will no longer sell the parts to the ILS. I was told they would not sell the parts and they were all listed as Factory Install Only on the parts look up and it would have to be sent in to have S&W install them. So now if you grind off the tab, it has to go back to S&W if you want to put it back to original before selling or trading it. With the costs of overnight shipping handguns now days plus whatever S&W charges for return shipping, parts plus the installation of said parts, it could easily be a couple hundred bucks to get one put back to original.

Pretty smart move by S&W you have probably thousands of ILS's flag tabs ground down on their guns and now they get to make even more $ when people find out they have to send them in to have them put back. The liability of selling/trading one with the ILS defeated would be huge. Pretty crappy move for customers, considering you can order the safety parts for their 1911's and all sorts of other parts that need gunsmith fitting, but the ILS parts are factory install only.

this is the reason i will never buy another Schiess and Weasel product again...
too many properly designed trouble-free guns are being made by other companies...
S&W screwed themselves out of a customer of 40 years with their stupid BS...

quote:

Originally posted by redeux:

quote:

Originally posted by Toddm:
When I first got my 329PD I had ILIF with heavy 300 grain loads. When disassembled the spring for the flag was very weak, a little bending of the spring ear and the problem went away, but it was enough for me to want the probably fixed permanently.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that I ran into the other day. There are a lot of posts recommending to grind off the little tab and then order the spare lock flag/spring from S&W so if you sell/trade it down the road you can put the new parts to change it back to factory condition.

I attempted this the other day and S&W will no longer sell the parts to the ILS. I was told they would not sell the parts and they were all listed as Factory Install Only on the parts look up and it would have to be sent in to have S&W install them. So now if you grind off the tab, it has to go back to S&W if you want to put it back to original before selling or trading it. With the costs of overnight shipping handguns now days plus whatever S&W charges for return shipping, parts plus the installation of said parts, it could easily be a couple hundred bucks to get one put back to original.

Pretty smart move by S&W you have probably thousands of ILS's flag tabs ground down on their guns and now they get to make even more $ when people find out they have to send them in to have them put back. The liability of selling/trading one with the ILS defeated would be huge. Pretty crappy move for customers, considering you can order the safety parts for their 1911's and all sorts of other parts that need gunsmith fitting, but the ILS parts are factory install only.

this is the reason i will never buy another Schiess and Weasel product again...
too many properly designed trouble-free guns are being made by other companies...
S&W screwed themselves out of a customer of 40 years with their stupid BS...

This is another reason why I always suggest that rather than modify an ILS gun (if you bought one in the first place), one should simply get rid of them and buy pre-locks. If you don't own any ILS-equipped guns, you need never give the matter another thought, nor another dollar.

I agree with that principle DHart. Unfortunately I'd already purchased mine before knowing about the IL controversy. My 649 was 'fixed' this evening. (I'm getting good at this )

If at all possible I will avoid any IL bearing S&W in the future.

The worse part of all of this is that even the skeptics about the IL issues would rather have a non-IL gun and yet S&W provides no choice with the exception of some limited runs. No one wants them.

DHart, you don't have to get rid of the IL guns.

Just remove the whole thing and be done with it.

Any S&W gun I would use for self defense would have the IL removed and I wouldn't think another thing about it. Warranty, resale value, etc., I don't care one whit.

OTOH, our two house handguns are pre-locks.

Seriously though, just remove the whole mechanism and live with a little hole in the side. Hey, it gives a little access point for lube!!

RDak... that would work. Fortunately, I only have pre-lock S&W's myself.

A member of the forum I moderate had an IL failure in her 627 Performance Center gun. I am trying to get her to report it here, or I will repost it for her.