quote:

Originally posted by perpster:
http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2007/08/s-revolver-safety-failure.html

Quotes from the above article from Michael Bane concerning his personal ILIF:

"Heard about the internal S&W revolver lock failing for years, but ever since my friend Charlie Petty's scathing article in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER, which essentially said the safety failures were an urban myth (and which I can't for the life of me find on the Internet), I dismissed the idea from my mind."

...


"...On the second round, the "flag" part of the locking system flew up and locked the gun up at almost a full cock.

I couldn't unlock it; I couldn't uncock it; I couldn't get it to fire. It took me 20 minutes of working v....e....e....r....r....y gingerly with a screwdriver to get the lock to release enough to allow me to bring the 329 to full cock and subsequently unlock the cylinder and empty the gun.

I'd say this was NOT GOOD for a gun billed as a dangerous game back-up gun!

Mine is going back to Jim Stroh for a lock removal and a thorough examination. ALL my centerfire S&Ws with locks will get the damned things removed, and I'll live with the hole in the frame.

In the meanwhile, I STRONGLY caution all of you about trusting your precious butts to an S&W revolver with the integral lock using HEAVY BULLETS! Especially the ultralight Scadium-framed revolvers like the 329, 325, 340, 357, etc.

To quote from an old bluesman I once knew, "I ain't tellin' you what I heard; I ain't tellin' you what I read; I'm tellin' you what is."
"

Please follow the link provided for full details. He covers numbers of round fired, various loads used and many more details not included here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Osprey,

I'm so glad that it happened to Michael Bane! Not because I dislike him (I like him fine), but because now let's see Charles Petty say it doesn't happen! Ha!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Erich,

quote:

Originally posted by 45wheelgun:
The article from Charles Petty was public repudiation...

The tone of the article did make it seem so, didn't it? With all due respect to Mr. Petty, I do believe that he was lacking sufficient information to form an adequate opinion. Let's just say that.

If those who are sceptical of the stories circulating about lock induced failures were to read this thread and hang out here for a while, then perhaps they might be more inclined to believe these stories.

The anonymity of the internet is such that a smart man will approach stories and rumor with caution and scepticism. But Michael Bane is anything but anonymous in the online gun community. Given his status and reputation, I believe that he gave an accurate recounting of his problems with the lock.

If one were to discount the LIF stories by those in this and other forums as being false, attributing them perhaps to overactive imaginations and the need to pile on, then that still leaves us with one highly credible source claiming such a failure.
All one has to do is read:


"...On the second round, the "flag" part of the locking system flew up and locked the gun up at almost a full cock.

I couldn't unlock it; I couldn't uncock it; I couldn't get it to fire. It took me 20 minutes of working v....e....e....r....r....y gingerly with a screwdriver to get the lock to release enough to allow me to bring the 329 to full cock and subsequently unlock the cylinder and empty the gun.

I'd say this was NOT GOOD for a gun billed as a dangerous game back-up gun!"

He couldn't unlock it

He couldn't uncock it

The pistol would not fire

It took twenty minutes to correct

This is unacceptable. Period.


Considering the source of these remarks, I am more convinced than ever that the internal lock Smith&Wessson is putting on their revolvers is not only an eyesore and a superfluity, but more than that, a potential life-threatening hazard for a shooter in an emergency.

This thread convinced me -- particularly Erich and Mike Bane.



Of course, it's fine at the range to dig around in your pockets for the keys. If it happened in a self-defense situation....I'd probably have to find Jesus 'but as quick as Michael Vick did.

- Jim

Gawd, ain't it great when the light goes on!

We've finally been vindicated, but that will get no press, or at least nowhere near as much as the public flogging handed out by others toward us. And we can tie a lot of todays problems in with these experiences.

One that comes to mind is everyone saying that American workmanship is shoddy or dead. The same group complains about foreign ownership or buying out our companies. But the simple fact is that S&W, an old standby known for the highest quality products has been bought out by an upstart that wants to market its unproven products. When those products are installed in a fine handgun, the entire package is tarnished and made inoperable.

We can draw a parallel with autos, too. If only one out of 100 loses its transmission as its driven home, that one owner won't be buying another of that brand. Sure, the dealership can "make it right", but it won't be. That owner will forever have it in his mind that the next cycle, maybe he'll be "queen for a day" and left waiting for the truck with the hook.

What we're seeing is the downfall of the American handgun industry. Colt is in the crapper, with its prices and quality control. Bill Ruger and his anti self defense talk basically took themselves out of that market. Now the past two owners of S&W are doing the number there. Ain't nothin' left, folks.

Does this mean the anti-gunners have won? Is all there is left for them to do is ban imports?

Someone with machinist skills want a company? Just produce a IL replacement kit. We'll call it the HoleFiller. Your choice of color, blue/black or grey. For those of you that are insecure, we'll even include a tiny ziplock baggie for the original, useless parts.

Someone above suggested that we or some of us deserve an apology. Anyone holding their breath?

quote:

Originally posted by rburg:
Someone above suggested that we or some of us deserve an apology. Anyone holding their breath?

No apology will be forthcoming, but we can make this issue more visible to those who visit this forum.
I'm going to Feature this topic for a while.

Perhaps a long while.

More from Michael Bane:

"It IS scary stuff! There is no reason on earth why that lock should have seized the gun up. The rounds are specifically designed for the gun and withing SAAMI spec for "normal", ie, not +P, pressures. The 255 grain bullet is only a little heavier than the standard .44 Magnum load of 240 grains and well below the weight of the heavy hunting bullets. I ususally keep Winchester 250 grain screamers around, as well as the Cor-Bon 300 grainers. Cor-Bon offers .44 bullet weights up to 320 grains. I mean. it's not that far off Elmer Keith's .44 SPECIAL loading (250 gr @ 1200 fps). We're not talking about new territory here. I've shot thousands of hotter .44s out of literally hundreds of guns with no problems. NONE of the rounds fired showed ANY pressure signs (flattened primers, sticky extraction, etc.).

SOOOOOOOOOO...in terms of a dangerous game back-up gun, it's the RUGER ALASKAN all the way. I've shot looney-tune .454 Casull loads out of mine without any problem whatsoever (other than sticky extractions with the heavy bruiser Cor-Bons...

I was willing to go with Charlie Petty's expertise and say the lock controversy was much ado about nothing...however, if I had been shooting at a bear...or the lion who keeps coming around my house...to protect myself or my family, I'd be wild game chow about now.

This is not acceptable!

Michael B"

There are 2 problem areas. First is the ugly hole in the side, the other the slot beside the hammer. Dust, dirt or foreign matter can enter either place. There are a number of suggested cures, with one being to leave the lock parts in place but grind off the nub that engages the hammer. With that nub gone, the gun will fire even with the flag in the locked position.

Either approach creates unnecessary problems for the owner. As stated, grit cold enter and tie up the gun (kind of unlikely, but inspections and cleaning become more important.
With the flag up, you might also get the false sense of safety that the gun is inoperable. Or others might.

quote:

Originally posted by Lunker:
Question:
will I be voiding my lifetime warranty? Thanks.

If you just remove the offending part, then put it in a safe place. Down the road, you want to sell the gun or send it back for service, put the part back in. S&W or the new buyer and or dealer will never know it was tampered with.

quote:

Originally posted by 500 Magnum Nut:

S&W or the new buyer and or dealer will never know it was tampered with fixed.

There, thats better.

OH HELL ! THIS IS SCARY!
had a few extra minutes , so i thought id check my new 638...
it locks ...
but it won't unlock ...
seems as tho the supplied keys are dead soft and distort after a single turn to the left , so.... the gun won't unlock with the enclosed keys ... had to find an older set that were properly hardened to unlock the 638...!!! AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

They seem to.

quote:

Originally posted by DHart:

quote:

Any suggestions?

Just sell it or trade it for a pre-lock and you'll never even have to give the subject another thought... ever!

I would really love to do this. My main problem is trying to find a twelve ounce .357 magnum "J" frame without the damn lock.

Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by AIM_SMALL_MISS_SMALL:

quote:

Originally posted by 38-44HD45:

quote:

Originally posted by rburg: Gawd, ain't it great when the light goes on!

. . . However, the problems there aren't really from removal of the lock. With Mike, Mas, and soon many others in the "mainstream" firearms press openly acknowledging Petty's Folly and the existence of a GENUINE PRODUCT DEFECT in the form of the lock, it seems to me that S&W's potential liability exposure has just skyrocketed. . . .

(emphasis by ASMS)
It is only a matter of time before an individual or group actually does launch a supersize lawsuit arguing that the manufacturer has knowingly made the gun defective and unsafe by putting the ILS in it and continuing to put it in even after there is evidence showing that the ILS interferes with the intended and reasonably expected functioning of the gun.

Or if an individual survives a shootable threat which an ILIF has prevented the gun operator from neutralizing, then the suffering of that individual could come to be deemed tortable.

The fastest, cheapest, and easiest solution to "fixing" the ILIF and preventing further ILIFs is to stop making guns with the ILIF engineered into them.

It would be a shame for S&W to waste its recently enlarged profits by redesigning its guns and manufacturing processes, when simply deleting superfluous changes (the ILS) is the most elegant solution to the problem.

It will take actual demonstrated damages and just such a lawsuit as you suggest to get the locks removed.

I seriously doubt anything short of that would induce Safe-T-Hammer to remove the locks and even THAT may not do it.

It is interesting to note how many 'real' first hand personal ILIF's have been chronicled here, as Osprey's first listed reason for this thread's existence. The vast majority of the posts here have been hyperbole - opinions - posted by folks who, by their own admission, do not - and will not - own a modern S&W. Also of note, the very first 'failure', as others no doubt, was gravity-induced. We are not supposed to catch our fine instruments on the first bounce, although it happens. I really would like to hear of more first person 'failures'.

Of course, I am part of the problem with these nine pages of responses... this is my second post here. Since the original post, I have added another new 629 (4") and a 642 - both IL-equipped. Still, with my meager collection of mostly new IL-equipped revolvers, I have had no problems. And, my 642 is in my pocket most of the time... the IL keys are all in their respective boxes. Of course, then there is that kitchen drawer that won't open due to the also-unwanted trigger locks I've accumulated over the years, jamming it solidly shut.

Stainz