Cameron... there is no way that "all" the lock failures will ever appear reported here... those who frequent this forum and contribute here are a tiny fraction of the S&W revolver users extant. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that for each reported problem here there are many, many more occurring that will never be mentioned here.

Secondly, just what purpose would it serve for you to find "every" reported occurrence of lock failure? It's quite clear to see that guns with the locks ARE subject to jamming due to lock failure (and the incidence of which is nearly impossible for us to accurately quantify. But do we really NEED to accurately quantify the extent of the problem?

What more do you need to know? You know that the presence of the lock can and does cause jams. Even if the incidence isn't common. So just decide for yourself to take your chances with the lock ~OR~ decide to rely on guns without locks... that's really all you need to do... THEN get on with the business of living life and shooting!

My choice, as with some others, was to avoid S&W's with locks, therefore except when visiting here, the thought or concern for the lock never even enters my mind and I love it that way! Something for all to consider.

quote:

Originally posted by 5Wire:
The 'presence' argument 'might' be valid for every identifiable firearm part you may name. Some of those parts may, in fact, be more statistically involved in inducing failures than the lock may be. The same can be said of ammunition.

No one is suggesting that other parts can't fail!!! But have you forgotten that the gun happens to REQUIRE the other parts AND ammo to function? Whereas the lock is a completely un-necessary part... an addition that adds one more opportunity for failure that isn't necessary. There is plenty of opportunity for trouble in the world of mechanical firearms. I choose to select models with fewer potential problems (pre-lock) rather than those which ADD an un-necessary feature and greater potential for trouble (IL-equipped guns).

Your argument that you have lots of experience with lock-laden guns that haven't failed (yet) does nothing to ameliorate the fact that the lock has the possiblility to jam the gun at any time, whereas a non-lock gun will NEVER have a lock relatd failure. No one is arguing statistics aside from the statistic that one can avoid the possibility of a lock related jam and all concern for the potential problems of the lock by simply avoiding lock-equipped guns in the first place. That's the only statistic I'm interested in.

quote:

Any claim that having an internal lock makes the gun inherently defective is, IMNSHO, like quantifying angels on pinheads.

My claim is that having an internal lock in your gun opens the possibility of a lock related jam whereas having a gun without the internal lock eliminates the possibility of having a lock related jam! So simple. No lock = no lock related concerns!

Gun make: S&W

Model: 396-1

Age: 5 years or about 1500 rounds

Options: bone stock, except for a taller front sight with gold bead

Description of ILIF: was shooting my standard reload (6.5gr unique/250gr keith) and the gun locked up after 2 shots like it had been locked with the key. I unloaded shook the revolver hard set it down came back a few minutes later and it worked fine. I reloaded and after several shots it locked up again. This occured once more for a total of three times. I put it away disgusted with it and emabarrased that I had risked my life carrying it.

Confirmation: I read this post about ILIF took my sidplate off and discovered the return spring the keeps the lock down while not in use was broken allowing the lock to flop up under recoil to lock the revolver up.

Corrective Action: I fixed the problem myself so it will never happen again.

Manufacture Contacted: no

Well done, Mr. Taylor! Thank you for posting and adding to the knowledge base.

quote:

Originally posted by 45wheelgun:
Osprey, you have edited this message to the point where it no longer resembles what I wrote, nor does it focus on what I was trying to say. Please return it to it's original form or remove it.

Thank you,
Dave

Dave, I removed my edits from your original post and struck through your quoted reference to it above.

Unfortunately, I will NOT be adding any further notes to "other" member posts NOR will I be deleting non-ILIF posts within this thread. "YOU" can continue editing and/or deleting your own posts, but I will not be doing it. This means that going forward, this topic will once again become as large and "diluted" as it was before I started deleting non-ILIF entries (it went from 10 pages down to 5). The membership here will need to decide how little or how much "discussion" they want between the true cases of ILIF.

Thinking this through, if I were to have an ILIF, I would post it in this topic and then start a duplicate topic of the specific ILIF with "discussion" in the topic title.

EXAMPLE: Title = "Discussion: Osprey's First ILIF (M337)"...or something like that.

This would keep a lot of the "talking" out of this running topic, but still permit discussion of a specific ILIF in another topic.

From this point on, there'll be no more "house keeping." This topic will become what it becomes.

Sincerely,

sprey

5 PAGES OF THIS THREAD !! That's scary !
I only have one with the lock, but it makes me worry now. I hadn't realized the problem before. WOW !!!

I have never had any problems with these locks, nor do I anticipate any, as I do not own, and will not buy, ANY gun that has one of these stupid things on it, PERIOD.

There are plenty of fine used PRE-LOCK specimens of S&W's better day's, for sale at reasonable prices for me to choose from.

From a marketing stand point, putting these locks on the guns, has got to rank up there as one of the most idiotic business decisions of all time.

This is a no F'n brainer. Not buying any more S&W guns until the locks go away.

Osprey, since you announched you have stopped cleaning up this, couldn't you make another sticky, with near identical header, starting with "Discussion about.....", and then just move what belongs there over?

Seems to me this thread is too important to just let implode.

I read the piece in American handgunner and has used that to counter claims about ILIF's on my own list.

By the looks of it, I might have been to quick on the draw, but then my S&W revolvers are anno ca 1947 and 1984....

quote:

Originally posted by ErikP:
Osprey, since you announched you have stopped cleaning up this, couldn't you make another sticky, with near identical header, starting with "Discussion about.....", and then just move what belongs there over?

As I was thinking about an alternative to my gardened topic, I came up with an alternate idea that is very similar to yours. In the future if some has an ILIF, they should first post it in this topic and post a copy of it in the appropriate forum in a new topic for discussion with the actually word "Discussion" in the title. EXAMPLE: "Discussion: ILIF w/ S&W Model X"

Once the secondary discussion page is started, everyone can pile on again and a link to the discussion can be added to the entry in this floating ILIF master topic.

... sprey

So how exactly can someone remove the internal lock mechanism? Please provide as much detail as possible so I don't screw up anything in my gun when I do take the lock out - thanks guys.

All this crap scared Me ! Soooo , I just sold My internal lock 686 last week. If it is not 100% reliable, what Good is it ?

quote:

Originally posted by 41 Magnum:
All this crap scared Me ! Soooo , I just sold My internal lock 686 last week. If it is not 100% reliable, what Good is it ?

Not that your lock-laden 686 would have jammed on you due to the lock (thought it could have)... now you can hunt for that sweet pre-lock 686 and when you have it, you'll never have to have even a flickering glimmer of a thought about any "lock-related" issues ever cross your mind again! And believe me, that's a really nice feeling to have about your defense revolver!!!

sooooo - how do I remove the lock from my 686? See 2 reply's above.

S&W Guy... best way is replace the gun. You may take a bit of a hit doing that, but it looks like you can absorb that pretty readily. ;-) By replacing the gun you will completely sidestep all potentially troublesome issues of tampering with a safety device, blah, blah, blah. Seek out a nice, little-used pre-lock (there are plenty of them around to be found) and sell the post-lock. That's the best advice I can offer to you. Pre-lock means never having to even think about a lock-related problem of any kind.