quote:

S&W Guy... best way is replace the gun. You may take a bit of a hit doing that, but it looks like you can absorb that pretty readily. ;-) By replacing the gun you will completely sidestep all potentially troublesome issues of tampering with a safety device, blah, blah, blah. Seek out a nice, little-used pre-lock (there are plenty of them around to be found) and sell the post-lock. That's the best advice I can offer to you. Pre-lock means never having to even think about a lock-related problem of any kind.

Big fan of my 340pd, been carrying it and shooting it for years. Is there a no-lock version of the 340? If not, what is the closest gun to it that doesn't have a lock?

Thanks

I just got back from the CHL Instructor Course conducted by the Texas Department of Public Safety .

Toward the end of the course, the Sr. Sgt. in charge of the CHL program in Texas (Who is also one of the range bosses)talked about an internal lock failure he experienced on the DPS range.

He said a stainless S&W revolver of the five shot version (presumably a 60) locked up after it's second shot... but the bad thing is the lock-up happened with the revolver cocked for the third shot... a VERY dangerous condition indeed...

The Sgt. went on to say the DPS sent it back to S&W after they dis-assembled the gun on the range so they could unload it.

He also said S&W promptly sent back a replacement gun, but he was amazed by how unsafe the situation was. Said he won't buy a S&W with internal lock.

Happily I only have two S&Ws with locks and they are commemerative guns and thus safe queens... so no problem.

One thing this demonstrated to me was the fact that S&W IS aware of the problem... the Texas DPS has made them aware of it... which seems to me a pretty reliable source... and of course others have too.

It sounds like a tort lawyers dream....

Anyway,

Brand - S&W

Type - Model 60

Age - New

Options - Stock

Description of Failure - Locked up in full cock position

Confirmation - Flag had moved to red, upon dis-assembly stoppage could be cleared.

Mfg Contacted - Yes, gun sent back to Springfield

Mfg. Action - Replaced gun

FWIW

Chuck

A drop of Loctite in the right place would effectively disable the lock mechanism, and wouldn't be noticeable. The only way it would be detectable would be if someone tried to lock it with a key.

I spoke yesterday with a noted revolver smith who tells me of a Law Enforcement Officer shooting his duty gun in a match, when it froze due to the IL.
The gunsmith is registered here and I'm going to see if I can get him to post the details.
These stories aren't just coming from anonymous internet sources. The sources from whom I am hearing, I consider to be quite reliable.

Yes, much ado about nothing, indeed, huh?


Of course, now there's no turning back. We're stuck with these things. The first ND that happened with a post-IL revolver, the lawyers for that family would have a field day. Nice. Just beautiful.

Greetings all,

I guess I'm the revolversmith Parabellum is speaking of...

The gun in question was a 627 V-Comp 8 shot .357 which is the Deputy's duty gun. The unintended activation of the locking flag ocurred during the 2006 International Revolver Championship.

Ammunition was mild 38 special handloads, 158 gr RNFMJ with an average velocity of 748 fps.

I was standing approximately 6-8 feet from the deputy(one of my best friends) when the failure happened. During the last string on what is called "Far and Near Standards" (The Course of Fire is described on the ICORE website-www.icore.org), the shooter fires six shots on 3 targets strong hand unsupported, performs a reload and then fires 6 shots weak hand unsupported. Lockup happened immediately after the reload was performed and the cylinder was closed.

Upon inspection, the indicator flag was in the locked position with the hammer in the neutral state.

After the match, the revolver was disassembled and I and that the flag spring was weak.

Because this was his duty sidearm, the lock was rendered inert.

If memory serves, I had posted on another thread a few years ago in which another leo's safety had spontaneously activated on his Scandium backup revolver. I will try to find the thread and post.

~Randy Lee

quote:

Originally posted by ttpete:
A drop of Loctite in the right place would effectively disable the lock mechanism, and wouldn't be noticeable. The only way it would be detectable would be if someone tried to lock it with a key.

So where is the "right place"

This isn't a failure of the IL but you might want to hear it anyway?

I have a Model 67 that is a few years old.

It's a great shooting gun but I noticed a while back that there was a shiney spot on the hammer where the flag of the IL lined up with it.

I worked the hammer slowly and saw that it was the flag causing the scrape mark on the hammer. The scrape mark had made a shiney scratch on the hammer where it hit it every time I cocked the hammer.

Blue touch up stuff didn't get rid of the scratch but made it a little less shiney.

I forget which garbage can I threw the flag into!!

I only have one Smith with the lock. It is a 29-8 Mountain Gun. Unfortunately blued .44 mag Mountain Guns are apparently as scarce as hen's teeth so I'm afraid that selling it and looking for a non-lock model is going to be a wild goose chase. Is removing the lock easy, and are there step-by-step instructions posted anywhere? Or is it something best left to a gunsmith? Will a gunsmith even do it?

And in case anyone from S&W checks out this forum, in the future I will not be buying any new Smiths with the lock. Not sure if they care anyway but there it is.

quote:

Originally posted by S&W Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by ttpete:
A drop of Loctite in the right place would effectively disable the lock mechanism, and wouldn't be noticeable. The only way it would be detectable would be if someone tried to lock it with a key.

So where is the "right place"

I'd just disassemble and degrease the shaft and the hole in the frame, then reassemble in the unlocked position using blue Loctite on the shaft. It will look absolutely original, but will never turn again.

Here is a segment from one of my previous postings regarding a 329 that had locked up on a forum member...
"The hammer has 2 cuts where the lock tab can catch. If the tab catches on the position furthest back, you'll have to pull back slightly on the hammer before the lock can be released using the key. One of our Deputies reported the lock up on his 340PD on range day.

There is a lot of debate over whether the lock can spontaneously bind up the gun. I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law and that my brain is the best safety. To put it in context- Remington 870 Police Magnum patrol shotguns don't have the keyed safety locking mechanisms that the sporting guns have."

My personal belief is that the ILS has no beneficial function for law enforcement whom carry their revolvers as either primary or backup weapons.The same holds true for any civilian using the gun for personal defense.

Thanks, Randy. I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're busy over there, cranking out super-slick revolvers.

BTW, if any of you guys are thinking about having a revolver 'smithed, give Randy a call. http://www.apextactical.com/

Parabellum: Are we allowed to tell Norad how to remove the flag? Or is that something you'd like left off the site?

Btw Norad, your gun is a heavy gun (i.e., I assume?) and IL failures haven't been noticed much with a heavy gun. For whatever that's worth?!

I am glad they don't lock up as bad as the lighter guns. When I first got it I engaged the lock and had some difficulty unlocking it. I wasn't real thrilled to say the least, but it was probably my fault since it seemed to work ok after that. And I am very happy with the way it shoots. It's just that I like my guns to be worry-free. I guess I'll just live with it.....

I own a 357 model 686-6 i bought new a couple of years ago and to tell you the truth i never paid attention to that locking mechanisim...figured i would never use it anyway but i didnt think it would lock up by itself. Now i am wondering what in the H--- did i do with the key? Great i will be spending the next couple of days rumaging to find it. Can i buy a replacment?

I'll bet you can - the key I have fits both my 686 and my 442. See your dealer (they love sellin' stuff, makes the world go round for them) or call SW, don't think you should have a problem.