Poking around a bit and asking around, I was told to expect to see them for about 600 dollars (presumably for the MSRP 650 model). I've no real opinion on Kahr products as I don't own any, nor have I found any of their models that I couldn't live without. I would have no reason to believe that there wouldn't be a reason in terms of what it costs to make one that they would cost more than the KelTecs and Rugers, just as there is actually a reason (aside from marketing costs) that H&Ks cost what they do.

When I compare it to my Kel-Tec P3AT, which has been absolutely reliable, it's pricey.

GM,

I also have a Kel-Tec 380 that has been 100 percent reliable. I still don't trust it, though, because of all the failures I've read about.

My Kahr PM9 has also been 100 percent, but my reading about other's PM9s has not caused me to worry about its reliability.

If I was going to carry a 380 I'd have no problem springing the extra cash for some peace of mind.

But that's just me (and I'm trading my PM9 for a S&W 337 this weekend--hopefully)...

I go by what I know, not what some anonymous malcontent on the Internet is rattling on about.

With lightweight pistols, most of the problems I see seem to be due to the user rather than the pistol. The less mass in the pistol, the less forgiving it will be to poor shooting form and the opportunity for a stoppage increases. They bitch and moan and then get a heavier pistol and declare, "See! It wasn't me that was the problem!"

The Glock that gets knocked the hardest for reliability is the G36. It's small and a .45. Some folks just don't have the proper grip and complain. Give it to somebody that knows what they're doing and it's suddenly 100% reliable. I'll go with what works for me and not word of mouth.

quote:

The Glock that gets knocked the hardest for reliability is the G36. It's small and a .45. Some folks just don't have the proper grip and complain.

If I have to hold my mouth just right to get the gun to run it IS the guns fault. Maybe I’m being forced to shoot one handed/weak hand or am otherwise injured? This BS of your limp wristing has limited merit.

Emory

quote:

My Kahr PM9 has also been 100 percent, but my reading about other's PM9s has not caused me to worry about its reliability.

I came within a nats eyelash of buying a PM9. I’ve shot several, but less then 200 rounds total, and they all ran. I borrowed a friends and carried it, loved it. However I still feel they are just not reliable enough. Recently while qualifying I witnessed a PM9 repeatedly choke, failing to feed. The gun belonged to a fellow Deputy and he is one of our firearms instructors and “Gurus”. It’s the gun I borrowed to carry. He didn’t know why it was choking.

I’m not holding my breath. If Khar can’t make all their 9mm’s work, what makes you thing they can make this short 9, in a mini format work?

I'm still packing a Glock 27 or S&W 442 for a small gun. Too bad for me, as the PM9 is real easy to shoot well and small!

Emory

Wonder how shrunken and flimsy concealed carry handguns have to become before we'll stop being tempted to leave them at home because they're too uncomfortable?

quote:

Originally posted by gmchenry:
I go by what I know, not what some anonymous malcontent on the Internet is rattling on about...

GM, Normally I'd agree with you. If we are talking about the P3AT, however, one has to take into account the huge amount of discussions about this little pistol's failures.

I spent some time on the KT forum, and virtually every single piece of this gun was cited for causing a failure: slide, trigger pin, guide rod, ejector, frame, spring, barrel, etc.

Most, like me, were not malcontents, just guys wondering if the little KT was going to go bang when called upon.

quote:

Originally posted by gmchenry:
I go by what I know, not what some anonymous malcontent on the Internet is rattling on about.

With lightweight pistols, most of the problems I see seem to be due to the user rather than the pistol. The less mass in the pistol, the less forgiving it will be to poor shooting form and the opportunity for a stoppage increases. They bitch and moan and then get a heavier pistol and declare, "See! It wasn't me that was the problem!"

The Glock that gets knocked the hardest for reliability is the G36. It's small and a .45. Some folks just don't have the proper grip and complain. Give it to somebody that knows what they're doing and it's suddenly 100% reliable. I'll go with what works for me and not word of mouth.

I'm a malcontent about lots of things I suppose, but I've owned two Kel Tecs, and my wife still has a P3AT. Kel Tec's price point exists for a reason. They're not crap, but they do have legitimate quality control issues. Kelgren may well be the John Browning of the Saturday Night Special, but he's designed as many problematic guns, probably more, as he has real winners. Yes, Kel Tec does fix things with a smile, but part of the problem with them is that so many people do have first hand experience with their customer service as they've needed it. Ask me how Sig Sauer or H&K customer service is and I couldn't tell you, I haven't a clue, since I've never needed them. Nothing has broken or needed attention. Kel Tec's was great, but I'd rather have never needed to find out.

It's the same as buying a Kia versus buying a Mercedes. A Kia costs what it does for a reason, yet they are both still cars.

There's enough troubling reports from people who'd seem to have no particular axe to grind to suggest that some G36's have problems of one sort or another.

I add a healthy dose of salt to word of mouth, but often there's a valid reason lurking behind it.

I own a Mercedes and a KIA. The KIA has it all over the MB in terms of quality control, not engineering, just good old fashioned reliability. Add in what it costs to get a Benz repaired and, wll you know where I am going here. Not thread hijacking, my P3AT and my PPK are equally reliable, same as for my Browning, Colt Govt., Colt 1908, Beretta 1934, other Beretta 380s, yeah I like the 9mm Kurz/Corto.

quote:

Originally posted by AKAOV1MAN:
I own a Mercedes and a KIA...

Let me guess, you drive the Mercedes and your wife drives the KIA...

quote:

Originally posted by Alphonso:
GM, Normally I'd agree with you. If we are talking about the P3AT, however, one has to take into account the huge amount of discussions about this little pistol's failures.

I spent time on the KT forum when my pistol was new. I haven't been back since my gun has worked out of the box. I have no need to keep telling people that mine worked out of the box. If I had a problem I might still be letting people know about it.

Just think, the little P3AT sucks so bad that Ruger had to make one too.

quote:

Just think, the little P3AT sucks so bad that Ruger had to make one too.

The "concept" is a great idea, but Kel-Tec's execution has been anything but stellar.

The 2 Kel-Tec .32's & 1 3AT I owned were not reliable. One was traded, one was given away and the other sold.

From what's been put out on the TV gun programs, internet & gun rags, apparently Ruger has pretty much "Un-F*cked" the design and come out with a product that works better, but still has a few teething problems.

It's going to be interesting to see if Kahr's entry will have any success.

MOONDAWG

TEETHING PROBLEMS,
Funny stuff Man!
Back when Kel-Tec built it, nobody referred to it as teething problems, I seem to remember something like "POS Plastic Gun" and so on...
I still carry my first Gen Kel-Tec P3AT, and after I bought it second hand all I needed to do to make it work 100% was to call the factory and get a couple of new parts, I mean fix them teething problems

got a P38T and its 100% bang bang, same with my Kahr Pm9..

my dealer has one of the P-380's coming in.....thats all he knows