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OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners.


WELEETKA — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.

"It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI.

That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.

Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah.

About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.

The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.

Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners.

The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.

"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help."

Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.

"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.

On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners."

That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.

Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that.

According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.

He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons — as the OSBI did.

Harris said gun dealers — "federal firearms licensees" — have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.

They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon.

Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement.

If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.

Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used.

Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.

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I certainly want the killers of these girls caught. However, this raises several questions.

1. Is this truly a common thing for investigators to do?

2. Can they really tell, just from casings and fired bullets, that it was a Glock?

3. Just exactly how are they going to treat those who don't "volunteer" their Glock for test firing, especially in the light that there could be hundreds of other Glocks in the area that weren't turned up in their "search"?

I wonder how they know it wasn't a 10mm?

Maybe they have a fired case...

Or maybe they are just fishing...

FWIW

Chuck

this is very interesting. I bought a revolver last Fri. from a pawn shop. Filled out the required paperwork the call was made and I got the gun. I asked (as I always do) do the feds keep a record of this to which he replied no after 60 days it disappears. Here come the interesting part I have never asked what become of the actual form that you fill out at gun show's pawn shops and gun shops. Guess I'll ask that question but it looks like from reading this post they are saved for ever. Thanks Larry

Boneman,

That form you filled out, the 4473, is kept by the dealer for 20 years. If he closes up shop, he sends them all to BATFE.

FWIW, I highly doubt I would have voluntarily shown up had I been contacted. I wonder if the cops have considered there is a greater chance than not that the murder weapon was stolen, bought privately, or bought somewhere outside their canvas area. Seems to me they just wasted a whole lot of time.

I've never heard of anything so daft!

What a monumental waste of time and money! As if the killer is going to participate in such a foolish investigation.

A freedom loving individual shouldn't feel any need to submit relevant firearms to support such a sham of an investigation.

quote:

Originally posted by boneman:
this is very interesting. I bought a revolver last Fri. from a pawn shop. Filled out the required paperwork the call was made and I got the gun. I asked (as I always do) do the feds keep a record of this to which he replied no after 60 days it disappears. Here come the interesting part I have never asked what become of the actual form that you fill out at gun show's pawn shops and gun shops. Guess I'll ask that question but it looks like from reading this post they are saved for ever. Thanks Larry

From page 4 of ATF Form 4473: 14. After the seller has completed the firearms transaction, he or she must make the completed, original ATF F 4473 (which includes the Important Notices, Instructions,
and Definitions), and any supporting documents, part of his or her permanent
records. Forms 4473 must be retained for at least 20 years...............

quote:

The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.

Don't know about you, but I find this very offensive & piss poor police work.

If they've got a suspect, follow the lead, you don't hassle eveyone who legally owns a .40 cal.

It's the state's burden to prove a person's guilt, not the public's burden to prove their innocence.

What if the OSBI had a rape case; does evey male in county submit to a DNA test?

MOONDAWG

Please don't think I am tryin' to belittle the awful crime that was committed...but...

Wouldn't most Glocks...or any manufacture firearm that came off the assembly line very close to each other be nearly imperceptible from each other?

I'll give them that they can tell it from another model of gun by the pattern of rifling...but one out of 50? Give me a break! Unless of course, they put in an after market barrel.

How do they know that a person that moved into the area didn't have the gun? How about people that bought it 200 miles away in a different part of the state? Private sale? This wouldn't even come up with half of the Glock 40's in the area! Of course...who'd miss a glock anyway?

Cases fired from Glocks all have a tell-tale dimple in the primer, easy to spot on ranges when a bunch of tactical guys were there.
"Eh...I smell glock sign!"

"....will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings"

Doncha just love it?

I believe that Glocks have a distinctive land-and-groove pattern.

quote:

Originally posted by cxm:
I wonder how they know it wasn't a 10mm?

Maybe they have a fired case...
Chuck

It's my understanding that the chamber in a .40 Glock doesn't fully support the case in a unique way, allowing for a buldge. Reloaders won't generally reuse these.

As to the rest of it - balderdash! Typical group think horsecrap shoveled upon us "for the greater good".

Abridging our rights in order to catch a BG. My question is...

What happens to all those ballistic records once the BG is caught? If you think they'll honor any assurances to destroy them, you still believe in Santa Claus.

Interesting that letters were sent to caliber owners in the area. Here in CT., former (REP.) Governor Rowland expanded our State AWB with the blessing of the CT. DPS. For people like myself who purchased AK-type (7.62x39) rifles a year earlier, an amnesty was created (OCT'03) when we could register the AW with the DPS and surrender a thumb print to "grandfather" our possession of the rifle so it would be legal to own, illegal to sell in CT. Prior to registering my evil AW, I called the DPS and informed the Special License Department Officer that the sale of my AK-TYPE was approved by the DPS at the time of the sale. He acknowledged that while the State (DPS) approved the sale the day I purchased the AW, they approved the sale of a "rifle" with no right to compile the particulars of the sale, that is, serial number, caliber, barrel, etc. This must be true because the registration was voluntary during the amnesty for AWs. If you failed to register your AK-type,etc., it would be subject to confiscation as "contraband" and no criminal charges provided you purchased the rifle during the loophole in the first CT. AWB I believe the available record (to the police) of who purchased specifically what firearm, where and when is when a firearm itself is recovered as part of a criminal investigation. I've never heard of soliciting an entire crime scene area because a certain "caliber" was used in a crime. Hopefully they catch the scumbag who shot those 2 kids and justice served.

If I got such a letter, I would throw it in the trash. If I then got a phone call, I would tell them "no, you cannot have my gun so stop asking me. Have a nice day." The OSBI has no legal way to compel anyone to turn their guns over to them. You can say no.

It's nice to learn something I find it amazing that I never once gave a thought to the paper trail duh! As to me volunteering to bring it in even under these terrible conditions I'm afraid I would have to vote no! Thanks Larry

not smart about this..grew up as a kid believing that no snowflake was exactly like another..but are you tellin me that each gun will leave a distinct enough signature that they could determine without a doubt that my gun is NOT the one used?...and if I voluntarily submit myweapon and then it just happened to be so close that it makes me a suspect and I find myself in court spending money and time defending my innocence and my world around me looks at me like some kind of pervert?....on and on...and I'm guessing that by volunteering I have essentially given up some important rights of self incrimination?
Kinda like a traffic stop.. "sir..do you know why I pulled you over?"
My answer to the investigation would be.. "my guns have been in my possession and locked in a safe under my control the entire time..they have not been loaned out, or accessible without my knowledge...so ..no thanks...I'll save you time..move along.