Greetings all. This is something I’ve been experiencing the past few weeks since I’ve begun shooting long(er) ranges and have been meaning to ask about. Out at the range shooting the standard Silhouette targets (Chicken-Pig-Turkey) from 200-385 Meters (218-420 Yards) I’m achieving just about a 100% success (Hit) rate, even in a moderate 12mph wind. The misses result from doing something stupid (Trigger jerk) or losing concentration, etc. However, past 385M (420Y) it’s like I’m crossing a threshold, or encountering some strange phenomena. My hit rate drops to around 60% on the Ram at 500M (546Y) and to about 20% on a 1 foot diameter gong at 600 yards, even in a light (3-5 mph) wind. Is there something going on that I’m unaware of, some “Voodoo” or mysterious unknown forces at work past 400 yards? Or am I just a lousy shot?

Inquiring minds want to know. Thanx.

My setup:

Flat, stable concrete bench
Fuddwell front rest (Fudd top, Caldwell bottom)
Protector rear bag
Howa 1500 bolt action .223 1:12 twist 24” bull barrel
SWFA Super Sniper fixed 16X42 30mm scope
Leupold PRW rings
.55 grain ammo of various brands (Win, UMC, PMC, Monarch) all generally performing the same.

Cheers,

Mark

Heavier bullets/faster twist?

1 in 10 twist and something in the 65g area?

At the edge of the performance envelope of the .223?

quote:

Originally posted by S42N8:
At the edge of the performance envelope of the .223?

Don't know, could very well be. Thoughts on that from .223 ballistics experts?

Cheers,

Mark

set up a large sheet of white paper with a center bull at 600yds.shoot several strings and see where the bullets are going.if you getting groups,hi or lo,left or,right,sight adjustment is needed,if shots every where,load tuning may help. let someone else shoot some strings and see what happens. since the Marine Corp qualifies out to 600 meters,I would think that range is within the 223's limits. jwr

El Paso Mark: Just a WAG without doing a lot of ballistics research; but I think your bullet is dropping below the local speed of sound around 500 yds and is getting "squirrelly" real quick. ..... BC

I don't know if this would apply to a 223, but maybe. I use to shoot metallic silluette compition in the 80's using a 44 Dan Wesson. I decided to try my Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt. I started setting my sights for each range. 50m and 100m was just fine, but at 150m I couldn't hit the paper silluette. I set up a very large box behind the 150 target. the hits would go all over the place and they keyholed. The bullet was tumbling. I needed a heaver, longer bullet or a tighter twist to be stable at that range. Try a heavy bullet. You can't change the twist with out changing the barrel. Maybe this will help.
Phil

You are 20 grains short on bullet weight past 300 yards.

I can shoot the crap out of an NRA 600 yard target with a 223, but it needs to be loaded with 75 or 80 grain bullets going at least 2700 fps to make it work. You need a 1 in 8 twist barrel. And you need to know how to dope the wind.

You may need to try handloading some match grade bullets or order some from Black Hills or Federal. At 500yds, the 55gr bullet should be travelling around 1500fps according to my manuals.

Thanx guys. What I was asking/trying to find out is just that- Is there an actual physical barrier/physics issue past 400 yards that you guys know about and I don't? Something like going from supersonic through the transonic into subsonic (Though I belive the .55 grain round is still supersonic at 600 yards), or going from a vacum into an atmoshpere for example? Something actually physical. If I can rule out anything physical, then it's me.

So from what you've said (Aside from slow twist & small round) it's alllll me. I know mistakes, even small ones, are magnified the further out you go, so practice, practice, practice is in order. Thanx.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

Talk to the BP range folks, see if they have (and will share) any of the 64 gr and or 77 gr .223 ammo we run in the M-4's. Gotta work better than that old 55 gr stuff.

Given the twist rate you listed, much above 55 grains will not stabilize. At the range mentioned, wind drift on the 55 gr gets real wierd. Expect something like 4 times the drift of .30 slugs. At that range, you can also encounter 2 different wind conditions. You need to watch all the wind flags-if there are any. Most flags are now nylon, the wind charts are for cotton flags. So, the action of the flags gives you no clue as to velocity.

Frankly, at 500 yards I had to go to 75 gr. HPBT match loads to get my wind corrections to work. The Hornaday (not the A-Max) bullet can be stabilized by 1-9" barrels if you keep your velocities up. RE-15 allowed me to match or better Hornaday factory match accuracy and trajectory.

quote:

Originally posted by El Paso Mark:
Thanx guys. What I was asking/trying to find out is just that- Is there an actual physical barrier/physics issue past 400 yards that you guys know about and I don't? Something like going from supersonic through the transonic into subsonic (Though I belive the .55 grain round is still supersonic at 600 yards), or going from a vacum into an atmoshpere for example? Something actually physical. If I can rule out anything physical, then it's me.

So from what you've said (Aside from slow twist & small round) it's alllll me. I know mistakes, even small ones, are magnified the further out you go, so practice, practice, practice is in order. Thanx.

Cheers,

Mark

I strongly suggest you read a book on exterior ballistics. The subject is not all that difficult, but few of us who are successful NRA Highpower and NRA Long Range competitors have the time to go into the detail that you want.

ALL bullets have limitations. You are just pushing the ones you have past theirs. Other .224" rifle bullets have been recommended by me and others whose limits lie past the distances you want to shoot at.

Mike & Wyatt- Thanx, but that's the problem: I Can't go heavier, my barrel is a 1:12.

Here's a bit more info I maybe should have included at start which helped caused me to question whether there was anything “Weird” going on past 400 yards-

I'm using a simple Ballistics Calculator I found on the web to help give me a rough idea of adjustments http://www.handloads.com/calc/

I'm plugging in the following data for a PMC .55 grain bullet:

Velocity: 3200
Weight: .55
Sight in: 100
Bullet Coeff: .309
Sight Ht: 1.5
Muz Elv: 0 (Not sure what this is so left 0)
Temp: 75
Alt.: 3940
Wind: 0/0

Now, between 200-385 Meters (218-420 Yards) the data/actual adjustments are pretty close to being right on (Within 2 clicks). However, here's where it really get's Squirrelly- At 500 yards that program shows 44 inches drop from 100 yard zero which is 36 clicks adjustment. My actual adjustment was 46 clicks or 57.5 inches drop from zero. At 600 yards it reports 74 inches drop from zero (49 clicks adjustment), but my actual was 112.5 inches drop from zero or 75 clicks adjustment! My scope has 1/4 moa adjustment.

So either someone’s lying (The Calculator program or PMC) or I’m screwing something up somewhere. All of which helped cause me wonder if something strange occurred past 400 yards- How could it be so close to “Right on” between 200-400, but so “Off” between 400-600?

In any event, as y'all say, perhaps I'm up against the limit.

Cheers,

Mark

well hell...I was going to vote for "lousy shot" gotta keep the old self esteem in check ya know