Latches are a very interesting aspect of the Post WW II: I, Improved I and J frame guns. In answer to a question, I recently posted these observations of mine on another post in this forum. It occured to me to solicit your collective observations to append or cofirm my knowledge.
Although there was transitioning of latches for other frame sizes as well during this period, only the frames mentioned above 'suffered' what I call the 'flat latch experiment'. The 3rd edition, Stand. Cat. of S&W by Supica and Nahas covers the changes but it is generally lacking in chronolgy and detail of latch usage(an excellent book nonetheless).

Briefly, my observations are as follows, again referencing only the small frames indicated above:

On early post WWII, I frame .22/32s,.32s and .38/32s you will find the beautifully sculptured pre-war latches, along with medium ejector rod heads (not mushroom), and even flat silver grip medallions on occasion. And you'll find them out of sequence with serial number advancement and/or gun delivery dates. No surprise to most of us.

On later post war guns, '49 and early '50s, you'll find a slightly sculpted but more blocky style, with no undercutting of the top and bottom flared edges (very few of these). And then the most common up to 52-53 is the standard blocky type used on all size frames from '66 thru the 90's.
The three styles above tend to coincide with other changes like ramped front sight with barrel rib and leaf mainspring change to coil spring that preceed the change to the Improved I frame.

Now the flat latches began in 1950 on the then brand new Chief's Spl in .38 Special. First on the 1/8" longer 'baby J' frame 5 screw, with rounder I-frame-type trigger guard and short butt, continuing on the Chief thru the change in 1953 to the 4 screw standard J frame with egg shape trigger guard, longer round butt and longer still, new style square grip frame, with three consecutive distinctive styles of flat latches 'til 1966.(pictured in the book)

Flat lathes for .22/32 guns coincided with the change started in 1953, to the 4 screw Improved I frame (again, egg shape T. Guard, longer round grip and even longer square grip frame) with the Model of 1953 .22/32 Kit Gun(4") and Target(6"). The .32 and .38 S&W guns got the flat latch around the same time but while still pre-war style I frames, with both flat mainspring, coil spring change and then the converion to the Improved I frames, (progressing thru the 3 flat styles); thru the 4 screw to 3 screw change, and the model number commencement in '57. In 1961 all three were built on the 1/8" longer J frame like the Chief's Spl in .38 Special and given -1 model numbers. But the flat latches followed these four guns thru 1966 when the 'experiment' finally ended. The '50s transition models make for a boat load of collectable small frame guns!

Very interesting treatise.

I disagree with a couple of points, however.
Where you say:

quote:

The three styles above tend to coincide with other changes like ramped front sight with barrel rib and leaf mainspring change to coil spring that preceed the change to the Improved I frame.

The "Improved" I frame is accepted to mean the pre-war style frames with small guard and short grips that have a coil spring. In other words, a coil spring ALONE denotes an "Improved I frame". That is how Roy has always referred to them. I don't know that we yet have a term for the I frames with the large trigger gusrds and longer grips except, maybe, what I have always used- "1953 Style". I suppose we could also use "Improved improved I frame", but I think "1953 Style" conveys the idea better.

quote:

The .32 and .38 S&W guns got the flat latch around the same time but while still pre-war style I frames,

I don't recall ever observing that- a flat latch on a small I frame. Might be so, but I don't remember seeing it. Do you have any?
The early J frames (Baby Chief) are, of course, small trigger guard and short grip frames with flat latches, but they are J frames. I don't remember I frames with flat latches till the 1953 style.

Lee,
You bring up two great areas of discussion.

Where you say: [/QUOTE]"The "Improved" I frame is accepted to mean the pre-war style frames with small guard and short grips that have a coil spring. In other words, a coil spring ALONE denotes an "Improved I frame". That is how Roy has always referred to them. I don't know that we yet have a term for the I frames with the large trigger gusrds and longer grips except, maybe, what I have always used- "1953 Style". I suppose we could also use "Improved improved I frame", but I think "1953 Style" conveys the idea better."

I've had this conversation with Roy at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago in Vegas. Improved I Frame designation based on the coil spring alone is illogical since NO FRAME CHANGES were made. Where the "1953 Style" as you refer to it, ACTUALLY HAS CHANGES to the frame, i.e., the extended round butt and larger trigger guard. Roy had to concede that point, albeit Jim Supica appears to side with Roy in his 'brief' description of the Improved I on page 15. However, he also seems to contradict himself on pg 128 under Production changes; "1953: Improved I frame (deletes trigger guard screw...) which didn't happen until the trigger guard was enlarged and on pg 154 just above "The .38/44 Heavy Duty (Prewar)" heading when he refers to the Model .22/32 Kit Guns on the Imp. I frame stating: "...the design changes were introduced c. 1953 instead of 1950."
Again, which seems to be more logical IMHO, but maybe we can agree to disagree on this.

[QUOTE]"I don't recall ever observing that- a flat latch on a small I frame. Might be so, but I don't remember seeing it. Do you have any?
The early J frames (Baby Chief) are, of course, small trigger guard and short grip frames with flat latches, but they are J frames. I don't remember I frames with flat latches till the 1953 style."

Yes I have one in my meager collection. It's a .32 Hand Ejector serial #610935, 5 screw, small I Frame (you call Imp I), with a 2nd style flat latch, small trigger guard, short RB grip frame with Ramp front site, ribbed barrel and coil mainspring. It's a 99+% gun in original box that I'm sure hasn't been 'monkeyed' with. I've also seen others on the auction sites with lower numbers than mine but same flat latch and characteristics. One of that 'boat-load' of transitional models, to wit; I have the following all numbers matching inc. grips,.32 postwar HE or Reg Police guns which I believe represents all (or most) of the variations (please humor me for using my frame designations):

I frame Police: - 5 screw, 1/2 moon site with prewar thumb latch, med. size ejector knob, flat silver med. sq. extended service grips, leaf main spring;
I frame Police: - same as above but small ejector head and post war medallion;
I frame HE: - 5 screw, 1/2 moon site, 1st type postwar semi sculptured blocky thumb latch, Magna grips, coil mainspring;
I frame HE: - 5 screw, ramp site, ribbed bar., 2nd type flat latch (#610935 above);
Imp I frame Police: - 4 screw, 2nd style flat latch, sq butt;
Imp I frame Police: - 3 screw, 3rd style flat latch, sq butt;
I frame Police Target: - #657298 and 1957 ship date (1 of 196 all configured as follows), 5 screw, leaf main spring, extended service style sq butt grips with postwar med., post 1966 3rd type block style thumb latch;
Imp I frame Model 31: - 3 screw, 3rd style flat latch, sq butt.

Isn't having the collecting 'gene flaw' fun?

Best regards,
Jim Carter
SWCA

quote:

I've had this conversation with Roy at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago in Vegas. Improved I Frame designation based on the coil spring alone is illogical since NO FRAME CHANGES were made. Where the "1953 Style" as you refer to it, ACTUALLY HAS CHANGES to the frame, i.e., the extended round butt and larger trigger guard.

I think we should stick to what the factory, and later, Roy called them. I'm sure the factory had a term for the coil spring modification, so they could tell them appart. I believe they used the term "Improved" when they first went to the coil spring. "1953" is a very simple term that denotes the large guard and long grip. Why not use it? I have you on the above point- see the pic below. I'd say the frame on the right definitely "ACTUALLY HAS CHANGES". Surely the changes don't have to show externally, do they? If so, it still holds- gun on right has no strain screw, which would be visible.




Very good to know on the latches- I'll start looking closer. In all honesty, I frames were the last to interest me, and I am trying to catch up on them. I agree- there must be MANY variations in the transition period.

The "Flat Latches" on the "I" and "J" Frames changed a couple of times and the "Changes" somewhat overlapped at the Factory. Or so I understand. Not everybody in those days was working out of the same "Parts Bin" so to speak. They used what they had and then replaced with whatever was available.

quote:

I think we should stick to what the factory, and later, Roy called them. I'm sure the factory had a term for the coil spring modification, so they could tell them appart. I believe they used the term "Improved" when they first went to the coil spring. "1953" is a very simple term that denotes the large guard and long grip. Why not use it? I have you on the above point- see the pic below. I'd say the frame on the right definitely "ACTUALLY HAS CHANGES". Surely the changes don't have to show externally, do they? If so, it still holds- gun on right has no strain screw, which would be visible.

Very good to know on the latches- I'll start looking closer. In all honesty, I frames were the last to interest me, and I am trying to catch up on them. I agree- there must be MANY variations in the transition period.

Lee,
Well it's obvious that one can't rely on the books alone to learn all the nuances about collecting. I too have just gotten into the small frames after concentraing on the big bores for so long. Thanks for the excellent insight.
Best regards,
Jim
S&WCA #1994