Nobody wants to be told their gun is nothing special. Unfortunately this thread has soured me to the point I don't want to buy it because I'm being told a lot of mixed things that all boil down to "why bother." You guys love your Smiths and it sounds like you aren't impressed with this one. Mike I thought your first reply was very reasonable about the value. But there have been widely varying opinions on pricing and I thought some of them were unreasonable. As to condition, when we start to get up into the upper 90 percentiles, it becomes a personal judgment call. I started out modest on it and responded to the feedback I was getting to raise it to the level I figure the rest of you would grade it. If you are saying that encountering an earlier 1905 in near perfect condition is an everyday thing, then I guess I can accept the values given. All I know is that I have encountered only about two in recent years. I watch the online ads fairly often locally and haven't yet seen one in collector grade. I do however see them on online auctions regularly sell for a good bit more than people here have been saying. I should think then that a reasonable value on this would be around $500.

Thanks Pace. That was the exact point I've been trying to make. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: classicS&W,

There are a couple of other comments that I can offer. One,the difference between
$350 and $500 is not a lot . Sure, its $150, but in the grand scheme of things, its not
a lot. I don't think there was anything said here, that should sour you on the gun.
I still think its an OK price at $350.

But, and secondly, until and unless you know something about the provenance of the
gun, its just another .38 M&P, and it had, at one time about a million cousins. Its just
a nice, perhaps very nice, example of an ordinary gun. Until you made the statement
that you thought it was about a $500 gun, I had no idea how much you thought it was
underpriced. Maybe someone would pay that much - but unless you tried to sell it for
that, you will never know.

My feeling is that, at this price, its a nice example. But, realistically, I can't
get overly excited about it. For example, if this gun were a target, its value would
be a lot higher, and if someone were offering it at $350, then its a steal. But, its
not that. If this gun were a special order, with a target-sight front blade, it would
be worth a lot more. But, its not that.

To answer your original question, I don't think the gun is worth a lot more. I think
its priced fairly, and maybe you could get another $100 out of it. But "a lot more" -
I don't know.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Actually Mike, the number I originally had in mind was 700-800. It was only after this thread I decided anything over 500 would be unlikely. I don't want to belabor this too much, but you are still saying one thing that doesn't make any sense to me. When you say it's just another M&P, you are suggesting either that condition is irrelevant to price or that there is a huge abundance of collector grade nickel 1905s and therefore they command no premium. Also I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that there are no M&P collectors or that everyone is an M&P collector. If everyone collects these things and has one this nice, then the point about it being a common specimen is well-taken. To boil it down, a large part of why this piece interested me was my sense that there weren't too many of them in this condition and therefore the price was exceptional. If you are saying otherwise, I am surprised but I can accept that.

classicS&W,
By the way- Welcome aboard.
We did not mean to confuse you or knock the wind out of you. This thread just got a bit confusing for all as it progressed. If I may, I'll try to sort some of it out-
Since I just welcomed you, I realize you are new here. Bear in mind we live and breathe these things every day, so your initial post sparked a mental image for most of us that did not jibe- "pristine" and "95%" do NOT go together. Neither do "95%" and "90%". A good example, and I am NOT trying to be a smart-ass here, is walk outside with a scraper, and take 5% of the paint off your car(now a 95% car). Stand back and assess it for a while. Then, scrape another 5% off (now a 90% car). That extra 5% made a BIG difference, didn't it?

Mike is, I think, a bit low sometimes in his pricing, but he has owned many, many guns- some that most of us have never seen. However, he is not a dealer, so he may not always have his finger on the market's pulse.

Mike said-

quote:

Its a bit unfair to say what I am going to say, but it captures the idea. The only thing
rarer than a mint mint .38 M&P is a mint mint .38 M&P collector. There are just too many 95% to 98% guns around.

What he meant by that is there are a lot of people who collect or accumulate M&P's, but most of them do not run around buying all the $700-800 guns on the market. It is an interesting field with MANY variations. Most people in the field simply scour gun shops, pawn shops, and gun shows, scarfing up 80-90% guns at "used gun" bargain prices- $175-275. They occasionally pay $300-500 for a nice specimen in the 90-98% range. The guys who collect LOTS of mint-mint M&P's at big bucks are rarer than the mint-mint guns.

quote:

Actually Mike, the number I originally had in mind was 700-800.

I know you have seen them online in that range and higher, but check back next week- most will still be there.

Since it is apparently SO nice, let's drop back to the second post in this thread, where I said-

quote:

IF truly gorgeous, that would be a great buy.

Go buy it.

Lee, I appreciate the welcome but I’m not altogether new to the forum. I’ve been reading the threads for several months now and have a pretty good idea what to expect from the regulars. I’m definitely not new to guns. In fact I own many and I watch the local market closely because I enjoy it. As a historian, research is something I do all the time and firearms are my hobby. If I seem out of step with the rest of you, please don’t assume it’s because I’m a novice. It’s just that that my own experiences sometimes differ with what I read on these boards. Some of that, I’m sure, is because we live in different cities and have different markets. Evaluating a gun is not an exact science and the numbers will vary. All that matters is what a particular person is willing to pay.

I went back and reread the complete thread and I see I’ve been arguing some points that weren’t necessarily made and I’m coming off as bitter. Some of you may remember that I presented this board with my Model of 1899 months back only to have it dogged pretty hard. At the time, I was expecting modest praise for finding a very rare Smith, despite its flaws. Instead I got fairly negative responses and I found it snobby. That frustration came back to me here when it seemed I was getting yet another lukewarm response for a great find. But I admit a lot of that is my fault for describing the condition of the 1905 several different ways. For me, “pristine” was the operant word, not the percentage. Bluebook value is a matter I will save for another thread.

In grading blued guns, the percentage scale is fairly straightforward. I find that original nickel is more debatable. While there may be no finish “missing,” nickel has completely different properties than blueing and two intact specimens may rightly be graded differently on a quality basis, not presence of finish alone. I see now that my initial grading of the gun was much too low and put the wrong picture in your minds. On that basis, the first responses were fair (but I still take issue with 250). Most of the firearms I follow closely (historical ones) are not in the 98-100 percentiles, so 5% and 2% differences don’t matter much. To clear the air—and I ask sincerely—what would you value a perfect specimen of this revolver (minus the box) and what would be the value and condition of one graded a notch or two below perfect?

When I first joined this forum, I had been collecting arms, including S&W pre war revolvers for nearly 40 years. I felt fairly confident that I was well schooled and competently informed. In my specific case, I learned otherwise, and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I may have been better informed than some others, yet I discovered there was always an opportunity here, to learn more. Consequently, I never judge a new members level of experience, realizing the only thing "new" about their experience might be limited to membership in this forum, unless they ask a specific question that suggests otherwise.

We have all discussed the Blue Book estimates of pricing. The consensus has been it is generally absurdly optimistic and has that reputation, at least in connection with many models of S&W pre war revolvers.

I don't condone discouraging remarks and would rather see encouraging and helpful dialogue. Discussions sometimes are misinterpreted, but as Lee and Mike both have repeatedly attempted to clarify and explain their remarks, the spirit of that principle seems reasonably satisfied.

As for the original question and follow up questions of this thread, I would like to add my opinion. Based upon the clarified condition described, without a photo of the actual specimen, $350 is a fair price, perhaps $100 less than I might expect to pay here in the North East, where vintage nickel guns are less often encountered than say, in the South or Western United States. I would not hesitate to buy at that price if I were looking for one and I encourage you to do so. As for grading nickel finishes, are you speaking about "fading" when the nickel is entirely intact but has turned dull and milky looking? If so, that is another question and illustrates why grading/estimating without a photo is always just a guess.

Gun auction listings range from reality based to ridiculous and laughable. Consider those you see that are incorrectly described, I never fail to find several every single day I browse the auctions. For example, this morning, a Colt Police Positive that has had it's barrel cut (unprofessionally) to 2 inches, listed as a very desireable Bankers Special. Obvious to the trained eye, but there are already multiple bids from the unknowing.

The M&P, as has been stated, generally is a common revolver, having been produced in excess of one million. Variants produced in significantly smaller quantities, targets, unusual chamberings, martial variants, etc. will command higher prices. Supply is limited, demand is higher, plain and simple. To gain a premium, I agree condition is always at issue. However, it is less a significant factor when the subject specimen is so otherwise common.

I sincerely welcome you to the forum. Best of luck in all that you pursue!

classicS&W

Tried to email you for an off line discussion but you don't have an address listed.

I remember your 1899 post and I believe I replied to that one as well. If I came off snobbish there, I can assure you, it was unintended. But wouldn't you rather have honest opinion than just be told something you'd like to hear? As far as that or any post is concerned, I believe knowledgeable collectors on this board, will give their honest opinion when asked. If I remember right, on that post I said that value to a collector is in the condition. That never means it isn't a neat old gun, it just means it wouldn't bring top dollar as a collector piece. Remember, you're asking about value, not how cool the gun is.

This is a cool old 1899...


This is a valuable old 1899...


You also have to deal with the fact the collector's opinions will differ. Thats pretty clear in this thread. I seem to be on the high end of what M&P's will bring in the market. Why?...because I actively collect them. Wishful thinking on my part?...maybe but I still say, that on the common M&P, the condition becomes the rarity. Values of M&P's drop significantly at the first sign of condition issues. That is due to the exceptional quantity made. So the perfect M&P becomes a $250 gun very quickly as soon as there's any noticeable condition issues. My value estimates earlier in this thread regarding a 4" nickel 4th change still stand. And, as I said before, who cares what we say anyway, if you like the gun and the condition appeals to you, buy it.

If you want to chat off line...email me.

These guys are good, and they will hit you hard with the market price from all over the USA. Here is a nickle that I have that is 98%, factory finish and I paid that much for it. Plus I wouldn't take that for it. Enjoy the forum and welcome, read and learn from this group.

Lefty, Thank you for the welcome and the kind words. I'm finding that I am now more or less on the same page with most of the group. A few sentences in a forum thread never seem like enough to do a topic justice. I think that's why I got miffed. Pace and I exchanged emails on the topic and were able to explain our positions more clearly. Consequently we are seeing eye to eye now. I hope I didn't make enemies with anyone else.

John, I'd especially like to thank you for your post. I actually wish it had come sooner. Your photo and description are very helpful for me because the revolver in question is just like yours. If I had a picture, they would be indistinguishable. If you paid the same for it (and would be unwilling to let it go at the same price) that is both helpful and validating for me. Even if the premium on such a piece is not huge, I am still glad to hear that someone feels it deserves one at all. I can see from your picture the same issues with finish that threw me off, such as some polishing swirls and minor surface scratching. Nothing upsetting, but a gun one notch below perfect. Thank you for that. Lefty you can see from his pic the kinds of marks that only a bright light brings out. These are the types of marks that I have been addressing. This is what I was trying to convey about intact but older nickel finish. My thanks and regards to both of you.

To try to boil down a difficult thread, and I know some of you already said this, $350 is a very good price on a 4" nickel 1905 Fourth Change with 100% finish but minor imperfections. Less than that would be highly unlikely at retail. Amounts above that number would be very possible, but how much would depend solely on who the buyer was. Is that a fair recap?

Motivated buyers, and I think most of us would agree on this, will typically pay above fair market. Perhaps to fill a niche in their collection, or for reasons otherwise. Sometimes, just because they want the arm.

That has no logical relevance to fair market estimates,which we term as values. Speculative estimates are just that. When you get two guys in an auction room and they both are motivated, anything can happen depending how deep the pocket and strong willed their desire to possess the object in question.

In most cases though, it flies in the face of reason for a buyer to pay much more than he must. I believe most of us would prefer to discover undervalued specimens or at least, pay fair market. I believe that is a fair general observation.

Hey Classic S&W............Hell, I'll go buy it right now if you don't. I'm in Phoenix. Tell me where it is if you decide not to buy it. Also, the kind gentlemen from California stating it is a $250 gun by AZ pricing are soooooo wrong. We are the highest priced on used guns in the west. It is a $400 to $500 gun in AZ.

Mulehide, I appreciate that. I was hoping the locals would come along and say I'm not crazy. That's been the market for a while here.

Give me a few days to mull it over. I may go get it yet. If not, I will email you the place.

If I may...

It is my experience that many variables affect price, i.e. location, finish, accessories (box, tools, etc.), model, and others ad nauseam. Also, is it a gun that the buyer is going to keep, or try and flip for a profit? To me, the biggest thing that affects value is personal opinion. For example, the 3 1/2 inch Model 27. Not saying that it isn't a great example of Smith and Wesson at its finest, just that barrel length has never done much for me in a 27 as I much prefer the 5 inch. So, while I might find a mint 27 3 1/2 inch for a good, not great, price, I would be more likely to spend more for a 5 inch in the same condition. What it all boils down to is do YOU like the gun enough to spend the money? If so, buy it. If not, pass on it.

Just go and buy the gun if you want it. I've hesitated a few times
on some guns and when I decided to go back and buy they were gone.
You'll never regret a gun you bought, just the ones you sold or traded
off. I know I have!