Rather than post this under the "Show me your T.L.'s" thread, figured I'd new a new post on finding info. about Arnold's T.L. that has the star, and he believes was refinished.

First, the star, doesn't always mean a refinish, could just be a factory repair/overhaul.

On the grip frame, with grips removed, there should be a 3 or 4 digit number. This is the month and year of the factory work.

Sadly, unless its changed in the last decade or so, this won't help you find out what was done to the gun. They are(or were) filed, by the owners LAST name. I was curious about a completely rebuilt/refinished Canadian .455 2nd Model, that was factory done in 3/78, but has NO star, but on grip frame inside is R-S inside a box. Gun has the newer large seal on sideplate, 4 line, address on rt. frame, and a 4" 3rd Model H.E. "45 COLT CTG" bbl. and 1917 cylinder all serialed # to the original .455 2nd Model frame.
Thankfully, gun dealer gave me owners name he'd taken it in trade from, called the guy, and he gave me his dad's(deceased) name, and I was able to verify with a letter that work was done at factory.
Oldest rework date I have, along with a star, is 3/17, on the grip frame of a very rare 7.5" fixed sighted T.L., serial#431x. Maybe this gun was refinished in 1917, but the finish is "ratty now', as are the markings. I think this was the result of "barn storage", for at least 50 yrs. in CT.
So, Arnold, check that grip frame for the 3 or 4 digit number.
Anyone know WHEN the "R-S" and sometimes a B or N started being placed on by the factory, as well as the newer roll marks on older guns that never had them??

Bud

Bud,
I can share a few observations on reworks-
First of all, the markings, and the way they were used, vary over the decades, so it is hard to quote hard and fast rules, as in most things S&W!

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First, the star, doesn't always mean a refinish, could just be a factory repair/overhaul.

I agree. See Neal & Jinks(Rev), page 260. It states(paraphrased) "the star was put on all guns going through the Repair Dept. Beginning date unknown, discontinued in 1953." I THINK that the star was used sporadically, or at least occasionally, AFTER 1953. Most older(before the mid-30's) guns with a star don't have other rework marks in my observations. In the late 30's or early 40's, dates are often under the grips of starred guns.

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On the grip frame, with grips removed, there should be a 3 or 4 digit number. This is the month and year of the factory work.

Oldest rework date I have, along with a star, is 3/17, on the grip frame of a very rare 7.5" fixed sighted T.L.

I would say Look Again at that 3/17 date, to see if it is possibly "3/77". I have never seen a date that early. As I recall, the earliest dates I have seen are in the late 30's. It may be so, but I have not seen earlier ones.

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Anyone know WHEN the "R-S" and sometimes a B or N started being placed on by the factory,

The B and N are "ancient" marks that go back to the early days of Hand Ejectors- not sure how early, but they are on many Triple Locks. It will usually be beside the grip pin and/or the barrel flat. Modern guns often have the N on the back of the cyl.

The "rectangle" marks which contain "R-S"(refinish-standard), and "R-N"(refinish-nickel) probably don't go much further back than the 60's or 70's- not positive which.

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Anyone know WHEN.....as well as the newer roll marks on older guns that never had them??

Roy Jinks has said many times that he was responsible for STOPPING this. I believe he simply had to order that old guns simply not be refinished. That was in the 70's, I THINK.


There are other marks that appear.
I have a Pre-29 5 screw that shipped with a 4" barrel, but it wears a NUMBERED to it 6.5" that also has an "R" stamped in the shroud. Roy said in the letter that stands for "Replaced".

Diamonds sometimes appear on parts like barrels and cylinders that are not numbered, and some that are. I have heard various things the diamond stands for, like "parts on hand", and "replacement part". Both are probably basically correct, indicating a replacement at any rate.

Lee, Rework date stampings go back to the turn of the century. See my article in the S&WCA Journal , Vol 31, No. 2, autumn 1997, titled " The Smith & Wesson From Hell" It is about a .32 DA, now in my collection, that has seven ( yes, SEVEN) rework date stampings ranging from march 1911 to Nov. 1912. This gun must have had the repair dep't pulling out their hair! Ed.

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Originally posted by opoefc:
Lee, Rework date stampings go back to the turn of the century. See my article in the S&WCA Journal , Vol 31, No. 2, autumn 1997, titled " The Smith & Wesson From Hell" It is about a .32 DA, now in my collection, that has seven ( yes, SEVEN) rework date stampings ranging from march 1911 to Nov. 1912. This gun must have had the repair dep't pulling out their hair! Ed.

Thanks, Ed. I still keep learning. I still believe they used the dates sporadically, or simply forgot or did not bother, in the 20's and 30's, as I have seen many guns with a star, but no dates.
Does this endanger my status as "Chief Resident Butt Hole Authority"?

Thanks Ed for saying my eyes weren't that bad(3/17 vs. 3/77!!). Plus I know a bit about the history of that 7.5" T.L. that a now sadly deceased former lady friend brought up from its 50 years or more of "barn storage" in Connecticut.

Another interesting one is a 3rd Change 1905 H.E. 32.20 I have. A 4" nickled, it has the dates of 8/45 on grip strap and "star" on the butt. One wag told me that S&W stopped 'repairing' civilian guns during the war, but I guess not, just like the factories "keep em rolling" program on larger civilian trucks during the war.
Gun was refinished, but the trade mark on rt. sideplate as well as the patent dates on rt. side of bbl. were not "rerolled", and are very faint.
Wartime work pressure, or owners choice??

Bud

I’ve got a starred TL that shipped in March 1908 and had rework in May 1920:





It’s one I had restored by Gene Williams, and often show before and afters of.

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it has the dates of 8/45 on grip strap and "star" on the butt. One wag told me that S&W stopped 'repairing' civilian guns during the war, but I guess not,

I think Roy has stated the Service Dept operated close to normally during the war. Germany had quit in early May, and Japan surrendered Aug 14, so the war was basically over when your gun was redone.

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Gun was refinished, but the trade mark on rt. sideplate as well as the patent dates on rt. side of bbl. were not "rerolled", and are very faint. Wartime work pressure, or owners choice??

It was not the normal practice to remark guns in the old days. That was done, as stated earlier, during the 70's, but Roy stopped it because they were applying marks the guns had never had, like the 4 line address.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: handejector,

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Originally posted by handejector:
It was not the normal practice to remark guns in the old days. That was done, as stated earlier, during the 70's, but Roy stopped it because they were applying marks the guns had never had, like the 4 line address.

I looked at a nice nickeled Triple Lock in a pawn shop in Texas a year or so ago. It had been refinished by the factory and looked superb--except for the VERY out of place 4-line address on the right side. Just ruined it for me, I let it sit for someone else to buy.

I have a Triplelock with the re-work 5-pointed star on the butt by the serial number (11426), "554" stamped under the grips, and a diamond on the barrel under the extractor rod. There are several interesting things about this re-work. The S&W trademark was almost polished off, but wasn't re-stamped. And the barrel also has the serial number stamped in very tiny numbers (the size of the cylinder serial number markings) on the area where the shroud is relieved for the "knob" at the end of the extractor rod. This had to be much harder than using the standard stamps in the extractor rod channel. All of the other markings on the barrel appear to be solid and un-refinished and are the early markings, as well as an early barrel (the shroud shape etc is different from my Model 1926's and Model of 1950 guns). Also the service style grips without medallions are numbered to the gun, but look unused. Makes me wonder if they were taken off the gun when new, and not put back on the gun until after the refinish was done. The re-work data of 5/54 is also after when Jinks said these marks weren't used anymore.
I haven't lettered any of my guns yet as I am waiting until I can send some pictures of them along with the requests.

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And the barrel also has the serial number stamped in very tiny numbers (the size of the cylinder serial number markings) on the area where the shroud is relieved for the "knob" at the end of the extractor rod. This had to be much harder than using the standard stamps in the extractor rod channel.

That is normal for a Triple Lock.

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... a diamond on the barrel under the extractor rod.....All of the other markings on the barrel appear to be solid and un-refinished

They probably replaced the barrel with a new one, numbering it to the gun.

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an early barrel (the shroud shape etc is different from my Model 1926's and Model of 1950 guns).

A Triple Lock barrel is different in more ways than merely the shroud shape- there is a unique locking bolt assembly, and tunnel for it, for the third lock.

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the service style grips without medallions are numbered to the gun, but look unused. Makes me wonder if they were taken off the gun when new, and not put back on the gun until after the refinish was done.

Possible- Are they convex or concave tops? An early TL would have had concave(dished) tops with no meds. However, that gun is PROBABLY a bit late for non-meds, and likely shipped with gold meds. Perhaps they replaced them during the rework, but had no old meds, so simply made a non-med pair.

Serial number on Triple Lock barrel. (Ser# 3682)

Ah....

Reading this thread...I just learned something new! Thanks gentlemen!

I have a revolver that when I attempted to letter it, Roy said the serial number didn't exist.(Model 1950 .45 Army) With this information, I just went and took the grips off the gun, and viola! A date stamp of "6.62" was on the grip frame. Also there, as I noted in the letter to Roy, was an "S" and a diamond and a 6- all present on the barrel, frame and cylinder.

Is there a chance that the repair records from that time still exist and I could re-submit the letter for verification upon this new "development?" Or am I wasting my time?

Andy, Roy probably meant the seial number was open on the books, not that it didn't exist, but that it did not leave the factory through the usual channels of an order shipped to a distributor that was recorded on the shipping ledgers. Many times guns are given to salesmen for samples or gifted to gun writers, VIPs, etc. and are charged up as advertizing costs. The S stamp usually indicates the Service dep't, and means the gun has been returned for repairs, etc. and is born out by the date stamp 6.62 on the grip frame. The diamond stamp usually has small letters within, such as RB to mean reblue, RN or N to show a renickel, etc. By itself would still indicate a refinish. The 6 is the mark of the repair person, or the unit foreman, who did the repars. Chances are the work order/invoice showing who sent the gun back and what work was done is in the archived material at the CVHM. The goal of the new S&W Historical Foundation is to raise the $$ need to digitize all these archives and provide a system where a factory letter for a gun, also includes copies of any later work invoices, etc. so that the collector will have a document that provides a life history for a S&W.

Opoefc,

I do have a "letter" stating that the serial number could not be found in the record, and nothing else to report.

The serial number on this N-frame is #S6939
Of course, there were never any four digit S-prefix guns made...at least, regularly.

At first, I thought someone may have "adjusted" the number...but this same number is stamped on the barrel and cylinder- with no extra digits.
Also, there is the extra stamping of the S, a diamond and the number "6" in those places as well.

1950 Army's aren't quite common, and .45 Colt in them is more scarce...I'd just like to get to the bottom of it.

So...the CVHM might have a record from June of 1962 that I might be able to find this firearm listed? Resubmit to Roy, or make a trip to the CVHM? In the mean time before the archives are digitized that is...

The SWHF has a very daunting task ahead of them to say the least! I take it that this is a small nudge for some support for a noble cause?

thanks for the info. I'll look and post what I find