Howdy boys. I just loaded 50 bullets for my 1905 4th change Victory. I used 3 grains of Unique and a 158 grain .358 lead round nose bullet.
38 S&W shell cases are a bit larger than 38 specials. They are .360 or .361 and you need to size lead bullets up to that size. "OR", do as I did and use MAGTECH 38 special pre lubed round nose 158 grain lead bullets at .358 size which have a hollow base. Will that cause the bullets to expand in the barrel like the old civil war minie balls??? Who knows but I am trying it out. I did not use the expander ball to any great degree, just enough to start the bullet. Crimping is a must and some of the bullets still turn in the shell case. So, it's out to the range tomorrow, to see what kind of accuracy I can achieve. THis load will send the bullet out at 750 fps. It is a light load which is necessary in testing an old pistol. Mine was sent to England in 1942. It,s tight, and in great shape so it should shoot good. I'll keep you posted.
My next project will be to load my 38 safety hammerless (lemon squeezer) with black powder.
UPDATE........... Well, I went to the range and tested my 1905 4th change 38 S&W. The .358 bullet worked fine. The 38 special I loaded with 3 1/2 grains of unique, and used the same 158 lead round nose bullet. Now that gun is the victory converted by COGSWELL,and HARRISON of LONDON. They did not bore the cylinder out from 38 S&W to 38 special, they put in acompletely different cylinder to make it a 38 special.
The 38 S&W had a group of twenty bullets in an8 to 10 inch group at 15 feet. NOT BAD.
The 38 special grouped at about the same. I am satisfied.
I have been loading .38 S&W for my Victory Models, and came across some Winchester brass offered up for sale by a member here on the S&W board. The story was it was made by Winchester for the South African government during the Aparthied period, when there were supposed to be no arms or ammo sales to South Africa. This brass has no headstamp to identify the manufacturer. I have also seen this brass for sale on Ebay as Winchester brass.
The interesting thing about this brass, it is much thicker than other factory .38 S&W brass, it appears as it was meant to be loaded with .357/.358 diameter bullets. I have tried loading this brass with .360 diameter bullets (available from Beartoothbullets.com), and they will not chamber in most of my .38 S&W caliber revolvers, diameter too thick! .357 diameter bullets work just fine, they seat in the brass like they were meant for it. So, my pet load of 3.1 grains Unique behind a 158 grain LSWC (.357/.358 diameter) works just fine in my Victory models and my Colt Police Positive in .38 S&W. This load shoots to point of aim for the Victory Model and Colt revovler, and seems to be much better power wise than the weak factory ammo available today.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: canoeguy,
Yes, I have heard of this brass. I have not tried a .360 bullet yet, and don't know if I will. I am not going to shoot competition with my victory,and they are fun guns to me. I would like to tighten up my groups some, and think the reloading data on these guns is accurate. I will try a lighter bullet, about 120 grain, with 3.5 grains of unique for fps of 700. Do you think 3.5 unique with the 158 gr bullet will tighten it up??? THats pretty close to Lymans reloading book showing 3.7 unique as a maximum load. Maybe I should leave well enough alone.
I think you will find lighter bullets than 158 grains will shoot lower than you will like. I have tried 148 grain wadcutters in my Victory models, and found they shoot 3-5" lower than point of aim, which to me was unacceptable. The 158 grain LSWC shoot to point of aim, and the 200 grain bullets (.360 diameter) I got from Beartooth shot about 3" high at 25 yards. The 200 grainers started hitting close to point of aim at 50 yards, and you could easily hit a man size target at 100 yards with that load, but the bullets were much more expensive than 158 grain LSWC, so I settled on that as my "pet load" for .38 S&W. As they shoot to point of aim for me in all my .38 S&W revolvers, I figured my experimentation was over...
The story was it was made by Winchester for the South African government during the Aparthied period
I cannot say categorically that this is not true. However, since South Africa was making the .38 S&W round for the military and police from the mid 1950s until at least 1980 (my data is not to hand at the moment) I very much doubt the story!
Peter near Pretoria
Posts: 42 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 22 July 2007
How would you tell if it is 9mm Federal brass? I have loaded 9mm before, and the brass does have the same feel, thickness wise of 9mm brass.
I have seen pictures of this brass in boxes of 5000 or more, it is marked on the box "Olin" or "Winchester" and as I remember it was also marked .38 S&W. The story about it being manufactured for South Africa I can't verify, as that it is only what was told to me when I bought it. I do know for a fact it looks exactly the same as Remington factory .38 S&W brass, with the exception it is a bit thicker in case wall diameter and has no markings whatsoever on the head.
I guess it wouldn't make sense that a well known manufacturer would make some brass that wouldn't work with bullets the cartridge was intended for, hence .360 diameter bullets wouldn't work for .38 S&W.
Anyway, the stuff works great for loading .357/.358 diameter bullets, but this thread has piqued my curiosity to learn more about it...
Can anyone tell me how thick the rims of the mystery brass are? Standard commercial 38 S&W brass gives me too much headspace in Webley Mark IV .38 revolvers. Original military 380 brass has thicker rims.
Peter
Posts: 42 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 22 July 2007
It took several days to find my dial calibers, but the headstampless brass has a rim, as I measure it, at .050 - .052, the FN headstamp .380 seems to measure out the same, .050 - .052, and the rims on some old Remington measure .047 - .048.
I have a B prefix Israeli marked Webley that I have not fired in awhile but I don't recall any problem firing commercial ammo in it, I'm going to the range tomorrow and I'll try a cylinder each of the different ammo types/makes through it.
Could the Winchester brass without the headstamp have been made for Rhodesia?
