Thanks, Arlo. Very interesting,and the #'s seem to fit. My NON-Reg, went to nearby NH, where I bought it about 15 years ago.

Its in excellent condition, but like ALL my revolvers, see's regular workouts in my "back yard". But only with "prudent handloads", ranging from 1200 fps. lswc gas checks, to 750 fps. wadcutter target loads-but ALL in .357 Mag cases to prevent chamber erosion.

Bud

I was the first IPSC Section Coordinator for the Province of Manitoba, Canada in 1980. Jeff Cooper was still World Director at the time. In 1990 Canadian Doctors told me my constant throat irritations were caused by the cold Manitoba climate and that perhaps I should consider moving to warmer climes. I came down to San Miguel de Allende, Mexico and worked around for a few years on odd jobs and finally ended up owning an Ice Cream Store. I bought myself an old classic VW Safari (Thing) because I thought it was cool.
One day, coming out of a restaurant, I saw an old guy admiring my car. I walked up to talk to him and he told me he had one JUST like it, same color, same model. His name was Phil Roettinger. He made some quip that I sensed was gun related -- oh, I remember, he made a Rat Patrol quip, that was it, and I shot back with another.
"You a shooter?" he asked me. I told him I was. He told me I should come up to his house some time to look at his guns.
"You have guns here?" I asked, astounded. I had thought that was impossible. He made a comment about how his former job had allowed him to get guns registered here in Mexico and left it at that.
Anyway, this is a long story and I am trying to make it short; I went to see him. We hit it off like peas in a pod even with 40 years difference in age. I mean, you had to SEE this guy. Big tall guy, beautiful ex-wife who still visited him all the time. Nice photo on his living room wall, the wife sitting on Manuel Noriega's knee. I mean, all the stuff that just made a young -- well, younger -- guy like me shake his head in absolute disbelief.
He showed me his guns and I saw the old 27. I picked it up, asked his permission to test the action, and admired it openly. He told me he had used it in the Pacific Campaigns -- in later years he told me so much more about that -- and had used it as a principal sidearm in the C.I.A. whenever he thought things might go really amiss. (His C.I.A. issue gun was an old pre-1957 style M & P .38 Special, no serial numbers, no markings. Period. A Doctor here in San Miguel owns it now. The Mexican Army ENGRAVED a serial number on it when they registered it. Aggghhh!!! Idiots!)
I remember turning to him that first day with the 27 in hand and saying, "When you die, this one's mine!"
His eyes sort of lit up, and he drawled, "Well, okayyyy." With a smile.
This started a friendship (this was 1991) that lasted until he died. He would come to my Ice Cream Store almost every day, and I ALWAYS stopped what I was doing to go sit and talk with him while he ate his Ice Cream. We talked about everything;
- Guatemala, and what happened there.
- Guadalcanal, and the whole campaign.
- Thompsons versus Grease Guns.
- Thompsons versus Garands, at night, during a Banzai attack.
Come on, figure it out. My Dad landed at Normandy (Juno) and I had become an EXPERT at making him talk. Phil was like my Dad, he wanted someone to tell this stuff to. I could ask whatever I wanted, I had 10 years to do it, and I asked a lot. He always answered as best he could. His ex-wife and daughter always told me that "Dad never talks to ANYONE...except you."
I remember doing so many things with Phil, whenever I could. It was sort of like the relationship between Denny Crane and Alan Shore on Boston Legal except we weren't lawyers. We were great friends, but 40 years apart in age and experience. I remember going to the 80th Birthday party of a first-day survivor (Stan Levine) of the landings on Tarawa, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. Man, there were two other Tarawa vets there. I went with Phil, and Phil's other "best friend", Colonel Phil Maher who was the American Consul in San Miguel at the time. It was Maher who, after Roettinger's death, arranged with the Mexican Army to actually let me register the Magnum he left me. Maher kept complaining "Cal wasn't even in that war..." . I was the youngest guy in the room by half. Roettinger cut him off with the comment, "No, but he SHOOTS better than you."
Anyway, I had a great time hanging out with those guys. They always called me "Boy" or "Kiddo" or whatever, but I didn't mind. Maher was also a W.W. II vet, a P-51 Pilot from the Pacific, and also later C.I.A. . I mean, those two guys knew were the bodies are buried and they were both ardent "gun guys". They are both gone now, but like my Dad, they were real heroes to me. They will live in my memory.
I was back in Canada in 2001 visiting my Mother, who had suffered a stroke. My Dad died in 1994 while I was down here and I wanted to be with Mom. When I got back here, I found out that Phil Roettinger had died and been buried while I was away. Well, that's life. My girls in the store told me; "The Spy has died." They called him "El Espia." They knew he was the ex-CIA Station Chief. It wasn't a secret or anything.
A month or so later, my phone rang at the store and it was Phil's daughter calling. She told me she was selling off her Dad's guns with the help of Phil Maher, (two Phil's, always confusing) the Consul. She paused, and then said; "He always wanted you to have the big one."
I sort of choked up for a minute, not knowing he had ever told anyone, and then blurted out; "I know."
"Well," she said, "come and pick it up."

Over the next few months, Phil Maher (the Consul) helped me with the Mexican Army so I could register the gun. Get this, I am Canadian, but the American Consul came to bat for me. Why the hell my country isn't backing the U.S. more is beyond me because in MY experience, well....the U.S. Consul sure went to bat for me and he didn't have to do that.
So, I have the gun. It is in my safe. I sometimes take it out -- in the bottom of the gunbag, and shoot it. It is not really dangerous, all the Police here KNOW I have a gun permit and can take my .38's and .22's and .380's -- the only guns permitted for civilian ownership in Mexico -- out to shoot. So they don't check me. They just wave me on through in my blue Safari (Thing). I reload for the gun, as I could never BUY .357 ammo here. Sometimes I do get the odd box of Factory .357 stuff smuggled down, it's how I get my brass -- but generally I have to reload. I can buy .38 Special ammo, and I sometimes shoot it with that. I guess you could call it a "Safe Queen with priveleges."
I tend to "baby" the gun, though, and don't shoot it often.

The other Phil, Phil Maher -- the former American Consul -- died past January. Another great loss of another great man.

I don't know what else to tell. If someone has specific questions about things, ask away. I will answer if I can, and will be honest about it if I do not know.

Thanks for reading and suffering through my remembrances of how that gun came to be sitting here in my safe.
Cal Nordman

Calmex THANKS for that great story. It brought back a lot of old memories.

cal:

Great story and a wonderful gun. Thanks for taking the time to share.

RK

Fantastic story. You have been truly blessed to have known such interesting heroes. On the other hand, you would not have ended up with the piece if you didn't deserve it. Old guy probably felt you earned it because of your relationship, and the fact you would properly take care of it.

All I can say, is, WOW!!!!

Great story! Congratulations on your good fortune in owning such a fantastic gun and in having known the two Phils.
f.t.

Cal, what a wonderful and heartwarming story.
You were blessed to have known such a man as Roettinger, and he was blessed to have a friend such as you.

The only thing as nice as a great old S&W is a great story about its history. Thanks.

Thank you for the wonderful history. If you do a google search for "Philip Clay Roettinger" lots of info about him is to be found including the fact he did the cover art for a July 1939 Saturday Evening Post. A very interesting man. John

calmex,
Wow, wonderful gun, and a great story. I thank you for sharing both.
Both Phil's sound like great men.
We would love to hear some of his stories when you have time. Particularly any stories relating to that gun in action in the Pacific.
And one other thing, please. Can you send one of us a better pic of the left side to post here? I blew it up, but it is a little too fuzzy to read anything but 'Guadalcanal'.
Thanks again.

First off, I don't own a digital Camera. I will try to get a friend to do a photo if I can. The black and white photo was taken by a Liberal Artist here in S.M.A. who asked me if I couldn't come up with a "classic gun" for her to include as a photograph in her photographic exhibition so as to appeal to a "Conservative" clientele. She was not bad to look at, so I told her, "Boy, do I have the gun for you." She came over and we photographed the gun in Black and White, because that was the way she works, with the book "Shooting" which contains chapters written by Jeff Cooper underneath, and a target all shot to hell in the background (shot by the 27).
She gave me prints of the photo, and told me that it had sold VERY well, despite San Miguel's Liberal-limp-wrist-Artistic environment. Go figure. I have a large, framed copy of the print on my office wall and under that I have a photo of Phil Roettinger in his Marine Corp uniform taken when he won his National Championship. I will see if I can find someone who has a camera that I want to come over and take another photo of the gun -- I mean, I own the damned thing and so don't take photos of it. I just go over and look at it. Sometimes, I dry snap it (with snap caps to protect that precious firing pin). Occasionally, I shoot it. So there. But I will see what I can do.
The names on the side of the gun -- which are clear in my original print but seem fuzzy in the Internet photo -- are; Guadalcanal, Cape Torokina, Koromokina, and Piva Forks. It was a scan, after all, and might have blurred scanning? The last three names being, I believe, on Bouganville. Phil considered Bouganville the worst fight of all, it was the one he talked about the most.

I'm really busy right now so I don't have much time for the Internet -- which doesn't work all that well here anyway, but I will tell you one story about the gun that always comes to mind when people ask me about it.

My father fought in Europe, but friends of his had fought -- and been captured -- early in the war against the Japanese. Many died building the Burma-Thailand Railway, but some came back, and I was always interested in BOTH wars. I had read, or somebody maybe told me, when I was very young, about the "Possum Squads." The groups of men who went out amongst the Japanese bodies after an attack to make sure they were all dead and that nobody was laying in wait to try to kill just one more American. Normal proceedure was a shot to the head of the "corpse", just to make sure.
One day I was driving through San Miguel, back when it wasn't so conjested with cars, in my V.W. Safari. I had the roof and windshield down, and spied Phil Roettinger walking up the big hill towards his house. I pulled over and told him to "hop in", I'd take him home. Phil had the same type of car as me, but rarely drove once he started hovering around 80 years of age.
Anyway, almost immediately, our conversation turned to guns, and more specifically, THE gun. The Model 27.
"Did I ever tell you," he began with a shit-eating grin, "that THAT gun will go through both sides of a Japanese helmet?"
I remember turning to look at him as I drove, and answered, "With the Japanese head still in it, of course."
Phil's smile froze, and quickly disolved. He looked away from me, eyes squinting as if there was really enough wind to cause that at 10 miles an hour on our cobblestone streets, and then he said; "So, you know about that, huh?"
We didn't say anything more, and arrived at his house right away anyway. But the change in his demeaner, the way he looked away -- I guess my little wisecrack brought back more memories than it was meant to. I never asked him about it, but I know Phil would have been the type of man to not just order someone else to go do it, he would have been the first to do it so his men could see him do it.
Anyway, it's a story about the Model 27. It might not be the one you wanted, but it is always the first one that comes to mind when people ask me about it.
Cheers!
Gotta run.
Cal

This message has been edited. Last edited by: calmex,

quote:

Originally posted by calmex:
Thanks for reading and suffering through my remembrances of how that gun came to be sitting here in my safe.
Cal Nordman

I, and I'm sure others here, can only dream of owning a gun like yours. I'll read whatever you write and be waiting for more. Thank you!

Bob

quote:

Anyway, it's a story about the Model 27. It might not be the one you wanted, but it is always the first one that comes to mind when people ask me about it.

Cal,
First, don't bother with the pic. I blew up the black & white, and could read them after you listed them- THANKS.
As to the story, doesn't bother me a bit. Those men are Heroes, and all are due respect. They fought well, and long. Kudos to your Dad for Juno.
I am one of the dinosaurs that knows war is not genteel, nor clean and sterile. I don't care how one kills my enemy, even if he's already dead. I have a son who might wind up in Iraq, or some other armpit of the earth. I will tell him to err on the side of killing one too many instead of one too few, and doing too much collateral damage instead of too little. I have the dubious honor of having served in the only war we did not win. This, and our young being pulverized every few days by the IED's in Iraq, inspire my philosophy.
One does what one has to do. For example, I have never seen it in print as stated to be official, but the Airborne troops of D-Day were told they would not be taking prisoners. They would not have the time, personnel, or logistical ability to handle prisoners. Some old Troopers used to talk about it......
Thanks again for sharing some of the history tied to that gun.

Calmex, thanks for sharing the story. I do have to ask this though. Given the corruption of the government and police in Mexico, aren't you worried that if the word gets out of the value and historical significance of such a gun, that someday it will be confiscated, only to end up in the personal collection of some corrupt official? If it were mine, I'd be figuring out a way to get it out of that county for safekeeping.

Walter, I’ve been thinking about how Phil Roettinger retired to the area where Cal is, San Miguel de Allende, in the middle 1960s, and how Cal has been there for 17 years or so now, I guess. Of course Phil was very well connected, no doubt. But it seems both of ‘em, Phil and Cal, have made comfortable lives there.

While we do hear a lot about Mexican corruption and such, I bet if you become part of the community down there, learn how things work, that you are pretty safe. And it's also true that homes get broken into and guns stolen in the States, so who’s to say where it would be safer?

Cal, I just love those stories. I’d like to hear of any exploits Phil told you about, either in the Pacific as a Marine or in Guatemala or elsewhere, involving that “last magnum,” or involving any other guns for that matter.

Interestingly (to me), my dad was also a Marine Corps officer in the Pacific and later also a CIA officer, though in Asia and Europe in the 50's and '60s, and Vietnam, his last post. He passed on 12 years ago, but if Phil and he did not know each other, I bet they were aware of each other. (My dad didn’t have a cool magnum like that, tho, dadgummit! He favored a Browning HP.)