Bill's recent spectacular find of the 6.5" HD got me to wondering.

How many non-5" Heavy Duty's were made in the pre-war period?

Without seaching through the full archive of listings, I have vague recollections that 100 4" barrels were made but not all used in the pre-war period. Thus I "think I remember" the number of 4" being 24 for some reason. I think the rest we used up in the transition period.

We have seen 4 6.5" pictured in the last few weeks, and maybe 4 or 5 4" pictured, thus I would guess the numbers are similar?

Anyone got a good number on how many of each were made?

Finally, I have to ask because I never considered it before, why would you go to the trouble and expense of having a 6.5" fixed sight 38/44 made up when you could just buy an OD instead and have adjustable sights?

4" make sense, 6.5" seems a bit odd to me. 8 3/8" makes more sense but then again, why get a long barreled fixed sight 38/44?

Interesting points to ponder.

Bill says maybe 80 4" PrWHDs were built. I figure he knows as much as anyone on this matter.

I also read him say fewer 6.5" were made but I didn't see any specific figure. Likely not many because as you say it couldn't have been a popular model.

Supposedly a very small number of 3.5" HDs were made but I don't know if that was pre or post-war and I've never seen one or heard of one.

Again, I think Bill would be the best source for this info.

Peter,
An interesting 'ponderable'.
IMHO, the real world probably greeted 6-1/2" fixed-sight versions of the HD with a large yawn.
Most shooters back then probably agreed with you (and me) as to the utility of a fixed-sight 6-1/2"
And that, my friend, is what creates rarity.
I'm not surprised that special order was the only way to get such an example!
Don

Peter,
I once stated that I thought about 80 pre war 4" guns were made. After thinking about how many were shipped based on letters and how many have survived and the fact that the factory finally cataloged it in 1940, that sales were picking up. When you couple that with how many 4" transition guns there are with the pre war style barrel, the factory could have gone thru all the original 100 barrels and made a bunch more and then the war ruined their plans. After the war they put guns together and sold them as fast as they could. Quite a few of the known 6.5 inch guns were shipped to CAL and the LA area. I think they were popular with motorcyle cops and I can only surmise that there were a lot of those in that nice climate. Also, I think the police thought they were too rough on guns to have adjustable sights and elected to have the fixed sight guns. Also, the fixed sight guns were cheaper and shot just as well as exhibited by your groups!
Franklin, I think the historian will tell you that he has not found any 3.5 or 8 3/8 inch bareled HDs even though some literature states that.
I'm hoping that one day I will be able to get into the records and count up the number of HDs by barrel length and finish so we can know for sure what the production was.
I hope this helps,
Bill

Bill your comments mirror my thoughts.

I don't remember why I thought the 24 4" pre-wars, but the 80 makes more sense to me. Given the 4 or so that have been seen recently 4 out of 80 survivors "fits" in my mind.

I think one could argue that we can "reasonably" guess that less then 80 6.5" HD's were made also because of the survival percentages.

I agree with you though. The only way to know for sure and to really sort this out once and for all is to sit down with the records from CVHM and go through the records page by page.

I think that would be a fascinating vacation someday. I wonder how much paper we are talking about?

Peter,
There may have been 24 serial numbers accounted for at that time. There are more 4" guns verified shipped by the factory. There are fewer 6.5 inch guns verified shipped by the factory. Given both were special order items until the 4 inch was cataloged, it would account for the low numbers. However, I think that most folks have figured that about 10% of the guns have survived, then it would lead one to think they made more than the original 100 barrels.
Bill

Bill, boy I'd sure hope more than 10% survive. How was that number derived? I'd hate to think that so many have perished.

Chris

Chris,
I don't remember who did the calculations but that number sticks in my mind. I would like to think more survived also.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Peter,
I once stated that I thought about 80 pre war 4" guns were made.
I hope this helps,
Bill

Bill, A long time ago, (approximately 6 months) for your 2000th post on September 11, 2007, you said there were 37 made, then you said that there were 80, now you say that they are all but common?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...461079052#2461079052

Why have lost your attraction for the 4" Pre War Heavy Duty? Do you have some agenda here?

I certainly haven't lost my attraction for them, nor am I willing to accept that they are not rare.

I like others, believe that the pre war 4" HD is one of these most beautiful S&Ws ever made. Anyone have a pic?

quote:

Originally posted by lowriderfxr:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Peter,
I once stated that I thought about 80 pre war 4" guns were made.
I hope this helps,
Bill

Bill, A long time ago, (approximately 6 months) for your 2000th post on September 11, 2007, you said there were 37 made, then you said that there were 80, now you say that they are all but common?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...461079052#2461079052

Why have lost your attraction for the 4" Pre War Heavy Duty? Do you have some agenda here?

I certainly haven't lost my attraction for them, nor am I willing to accept that they are not rare.

I like others, believe that the pre war 4" HD is one of these most beautiful S&Ws ever made. Anyone have a pic?

OH MY GOODNESS!!!

I have wondered for some time now just how many of the 4" pre war Heavy Dutys were made and asked the question back in the spring of 2007.

"37 of these were made", "80 of these were made", "10% survival rate, meaning more like over 200 of these made".

Where is all this coming from as it is all over the map? Is it based on facts from factory records or merely speculation & assumptions???

Regardless, I feel very fortunate to own just one beautiful 4" pre war Heavy Duty that is pictured below and described on the post I mentioned that I made last spring via this link.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...201088512#4201088512

230grfmj, I never get tired of seeing that gorgeous HD. Thanks!!

quote:

Originally posted by lowriderfxr:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Peter,
I once stated that I thought about 80 pre war 4" guns were made.
I hope this helps,
Bill

Bill, A long time ago, (approximately 6 months) for your 2000th post on September 11, 2007, you said there were 37 made, then you said that there were 80, now you say that they are all but common?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...461079052#2461079052

Why have lost your attraction for the 4" Pre War Heavy Duty? Do you have some agenda here?

I certainly haven't lost my attraction for them, nor am I willing to accept that they are not rare.

I like others, believe that the pre war 4" HD is one of these most beautiful S&Ws ever made. Anyone have a pic?

Perhaps if you look closely at what 1Aspenhill posted on 09/11/07, you would see that what he said was, "ON JAN 14 1935 HAROLD WESSON ORDERED THE MANUFACTURE OF 100 4 INCH BARRELS FOR THE 38/44 HEAVY DUTY. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE WERE 37EA 4 INCH HEAVY DUTIES MANUFACTURED/SHIPPED. I WOULD SURMISE THAT ALL 100 BARRELS WERE USED BEFORE THE WAR..." To his knowledge (at that time) there were 37 4 inch Heavy Duties manufactured/shipped. As the research is an ongoing project, I would think that number may be revised. I suppose he better run any new numbers before you and 230grfmj before he posts them, so you won't think he has an "agenda".

quote:

Originally posted by 230grfmj:
OH MY GOODNESS!!!

I have wondered for some time now just how many of the 4" pre war Heavy Dutys were made and asked the question back in the spring of 2007.

"37 of these were made", "80 of these were made", "10% survival rate, meaning more like over 200 of these made".

Where is all this coming from as it is all over the map? Is it based on facts from factory records or merely speculation & assumptions???

Perhaps they are counting the 4 inch Heavy Duties that were chambered in .44 S&W Special, per the 1938 and 1940 catalogs? Or does that only apply to the 6 1/2 inchers?

quote:

However, I think that most folks have figured that about 10% of the guns have survived, then it would lead one to think they made more than the original 100 barrels.

As I stated above, the 10% survival rate is a figure that I had heard thrown around. If that is true then one could surmise that they made more than the 100 that they made the barrels for. Yes, I did at one time think that there were about 80 of the original 100 made. That was based on survivors that I personally knew of at that time. There is only one person who knows or could tell us the exact number. If had access to the records, I would be glad to count them and report out.

Bill

I think I am getting closer to an answer based on facts regarding the question of “how many pre war 4” Heavy Dutys were made” now based on some more definitive data I located.

In looking through the S&WCA known survivor files for Heavy Dutys (that has been painstakingly & generously populated with serial numbers of known guns mainly by our resident expert Bill Patteson aka here as 1Aspenhill), I could only find 16 pre war 4" Heavy Dutys. Add to that the one that Chris Helm (Nframe) just got and that makes 17, and the one recently posted by SaxonPig, makes it 18.

See the post made below (in ALL CAPS for some odd reason), as well as the next post from the same thread stating most of the 4” pre war barrels were actually used after the war in “S” numbered transition guns, but then in the earlier post it states it was “surmised” all 100 were used before the war.

(from Sept 11, 2007)
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...461079052#2461079052

quote:

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
I THOUGHT FOR MY 2000TH POST THAT IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO POST A 4 INCH PRE WAR HD. WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE PRE WAR 4 INCH HDS? ON JAN 14 1935 HAROLD WESSON ORDERED THE MANUFACTURE OF 100 4 INCH BARRELS FOR THE 38/44 HEAVY DUTY. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE WERE 37EA 4 INCH HEAVY DUTIES MANUFACTURED/SHIPPED. I WOULD SURMISE THAT ALL 100 BARRELS WERE USED BEFORE THE WAR AND THAT ADDITIONAL BARRELS WERE MADE BASED ON THE NUMBER OF TRANSITION HEAVY DUTIES WITH 4 INCH BARRELS………………….
BILL

(from same thread on 9/13)

quote:

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Larry,
Based on known examples and factory letters, I know of 37 pre war 4 inch examples. There are 38 transition with the pre war style barrel in the database. Most of the pre war style barrels were used by the early S68000 serial number range………….. Until we can make an actual count, we won't know for sure. I hope this helps.
Thanks again,

quote:

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Peter,
I once stated that I thought about 80 pre war 4" guns were made. After thinking about how many were shipped based on letters and how many have survived and the fact that the factory finally cataloged it in 1940, that sales were picking up. When you couple that with how many 4" transition guns there are with the pre war style barrel, the factory could have gone thru all the original 100 barrels and made a bunch more and then the war ruined their plans………………
I'm hoping that one day I will be able to get into the records and count up the number of HDs by barrel length and finish so we can know for sure what the production was.
I hope this helps,
Bill

So if others are known survivors based on letters or other intelligence that you have gathered and now possess, I wonder why they are not listed in the S&WCA list of survivors too??

The fact that not many were made in 6½” is not in doubt & necessarily a surprise due to the questionable usefulness of a long barreled gun with fixed sights, as was mentioned on another thread recently as well.

I would add a quick thought.

Bill states that in 1940 the 4" became a standard item? Did I read that correctly?

If so, wouldn't it seem that guns made in 1940 would be the most commonly encountered as we presume that more were sold that year than in others? Is the case with known examples?

BTW- mine was shipped 8/8/40.