You see much discussion on gun boards related to do's and don'ts of concealed carry. One area of discussion is related to off body carry techniques; fanny packs, shoulder bags, of "safe-packer" types of carry. One common critique of these carry methods is that the off body carry device telegraphs the pistol inside. As a result, the critique continues, the wearer is ID'd and becomes the first target of any criminal activity.

Based upon the above, I have to ask a question: are criminals that smart? My gut feeling is that criminals will seek the path of least resistance - favoring a weak target over a strong target, an easy score over a score that requires some commitment to action. If I am right, the "telegraphed" concealed weapon should serve as a deterrent to being targeted. (This assumes that the criminal would have enough presence of mind to actually scope out possible threats and to plan a logical step by step elimination of threats) Much the same as an openly displayed firearm would deter an attack.

I read lots of comments on fanny packs and most say "it screams GUN"! If it actually does get noticed (another BIG assumption)and it does communicate the presence of a gun, I say so much the better. What criminal actually wants to mix it up with anyone capable of defending them self?

I see concealed carry laws as a compromise. The compromise is thus: you carry, but cover it up so as not to alarm the public. Its a deterrent to the extent that a criminal thinks "does this guy have a gun"? If I am right about the criminal mind seeking the softest targets, then the open display of a firearm would be an even more effective deterrent to criminal behavior. Logically, an off body carry method - that actually does get recognized as pistol toter - should provide the next best deterrent to open carry.

What do you think?

Out West

You have nothing to base your opinions on.

People let alone criminals are UNPREDICTABLE.

You don't know what some people are going to do.

Heck, they don't.

Plus add in the issues of drug use, alcohol, mental illness, anger or just plain or meanness and ANYTHING can happen.

However, MOST the time nothing happens.

I have been out with friends packing. Those with fanny packs got undue attention by a table of police officers at a resturant. The fanny bag was a common brand which screamed GUN to the cops they all looked him over.

Me they barely noticed. I was doubly armed and they did not notice me at all.

They looked him up and down and eyed his pack. It wasnt' my immagination.

Criminals might decide you have something but if they are serious they will not be detered.

Or they might be too dumb to think about.

There's no compromise inherent in having a permit to carry a concealed weapon here in VA. If I wanted to carry a gun openly, I'm perfectly free to do so (with or without a permit). I still carry concealed.

A gun that is seen is a gun that draws attention. I don't like attention, I like to blend in. I don't want to be the guy where someone thinks, "Huh, look at that guy, he's got a gun, what's that all about?" I want to be the easily overlooked guy who looks like a soccer dad or generic businessman. A bland grey man who only looks in no way out of the ordinary.

More seriously, a gun that is seen (or the presence of which is easily inferred) also risks drawing the attention of someone who hopes to "snatch" a gun. There are gun snatch attempts that take place directed at uniformed and obviously armed police officers, so the presumed deterrence factor doesn't always work.

Any type of bag is subject to being grabbed or snatched in general - even if someone doesn't think that there might be a gun in it, there is presumably something of value inside: Ipod, PSP, Blackberry, wallet.... something worth stealing. If the bag is stolen, or the subject of a tug of war, at the outset of a confrontation, then control of the weapon becomes much more of an issue than it was carried on the body.

One also only needs to spend a bit of time with a woman to realize that any bag is eventually going to find itself temporarily forgotten or at least placed out of reach, set down, etc.

quote:

Criminals might decide you have something but if they are serious they will not be detered.

Or they might be too dumb to think about.

This pretty well sums it up.

While the presence (real or perceived) of a weapon may act as a deterrent it can just as easily make you the first target. A criminal may not have a gun but wants one. He knows you have one so he just ambushes you and gets yours. This is one reason cops homes have been getting broken into more with several recent cases happening while the cop was home.

I followed a guy on a really nice motorcycle the other day. His 1911 hanging off his hip for all the world to see. How easy would it have been for some gang banger to knock him off his scooter and take his pistol? And this guy was cruising right through some prime gangland also.
I checked and he had a permit, but it was still dumb IMHO.

Sir, IMHO concealed carry isn't so much to hide the gun from criminals as it is to hide it from the sheep and the police.

A scared sheep can make your life a misery even if you've done nothing wrong. Think of a neighbor with whom you do not get along. Now think "gossip." You can see where this is headed.

Police officers understandably regard any armed non-cop as a threat until proven otherwise. The odds of a cop shooting you are small, but you can certainly be inconvenienced, delayed, and/or embarassed if you're detained in public while they check your bona fides. (See "gossip" above.)

All that being so, going around telegraphing "gun" strikes me as being amazingly unwise. Far better to follow Mr. Gatorfamer's advice to disappear into the background.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

quote:

Any type of bag is subject to being grabbed or snatched in general - even if someone doesn't think that there might be a gun in it, there is presumably something of value inside: Ipod, PSP, Blackberry, wallet.... something worth stealing. If the bag is stolen, or the subject of a tug of war, at the outset of a confrontation, then control of the weapon becomes much more of an issue than it was carried on the body.

Which is exactly my argument against purse carry.

In PA, when we go fishing, my husband uses his sportsman's permit to open carry a revolver while I use my CCW to conceal carry a semi-auto. While they're focusing on him, I'll be the surprise quotient.

Lots of good thoughts and opinions. Curious about one theme that reoccurs above: attracting the attention of a police officer. I carry concealed legally, why should I be worried about a police man's attention? My interaction with the police has been limited, but in all cases positive with regard to my concealed carry permit. Has yours been different?

Out West

Here in Central Ohio the way the purse snatchers work is this: They come up from behind, slit the purse strap with a razor sharp hook knife, grab the now strapless purse and jump into a waiting car.

Anyone carrying a firearm in their purse just provided them with a firearm as well as their wallet and home address.

quote:

Originally posted by Out West:
One common critique of these carry methods is that the off body carry device telegraphs the pistol inside. As a result, the critique continues, the wearer is ID'd and becomes the first target of any criminal activity.

My gut feeling is that criminals will seek the path of least resistance - favoring a weak target over a strong target, an easy score over a score that requires some commitment to action. What do you think?

Out West

I think that you are right only when the situation is such: a lone criminal seeking a lone victim.

But if the situation is: more than one criminal taking down a convience store, for example, the strong appearing individuals become targets over the weak appearing individuals.


.

I think the whole "shoot me first" concern is hugely overblown. I would like to see one instance where a criminal took notice of a fanny pack and something bad happened because of it.

I often carry a fanny pack. Its a blue one, but I've carried the black ones before. They are great ways to throw on a gun, mag, light, creds, badge, knife, and spare keys in one handy package. The only people who pay the slightest attention to it are other cops, and they know me anyway.

I honestly think I could sew an embroidered patch on the front that says GUN INSIDE - SHOOT ME FIRST and not a single soul would notice.

THE CRIMINAL MIND
You have to be STREET WISE!
Criminals have a a "ME" out look on life.

quote:

Originally posted by Out West:
Lots of good thoughts and opinions. Curious about one theme that reoccurs above: attracting the attention of a police officer. I carry concealed legally, why should I be worried about a police man's attention? My interaction with the police has been limited, but in all cases positive with regard to my concealed carry permit. Has yours been different?

Out West

Cops and bad guys are often looking for the same things, just from different perspectives and goals in mind. In the situation I described I would have been well withinn my right to pull that guy off his motorcycle at gun point. I know alot of cops (especially new ones) that would have in a heartbeat. Armed man riding around a part of town that has had lots of robberies, easy to articulate.
You may be carrying legally but why would you want the hassle of being stopped and questioned?
You are really better off being the grayman and blending in and practicing good situational awareness.

Until I joined this forum, I NEVER once thought "gun" when I saw fanny packs.

quote:

Until I joined this forum, I NEVER once thought "gun" when I saw fanny packs.

Has it become your habit to give everyone the surreptitious once-over to see any tell-tale bulges in pockets or at the waist, and discern their overall demeanor which is different from the oblivious masses? I can usually spot a fellow "carrier".

And I think anyone looking for a "mark" is going to be looking for the same subconscious signals of whether someone is an easy target or not, whether or not the gun itself is obvious.

quote:

I can usually spot a fellow "carrier".

Yeah, I can also, Barb. My wife doesn't understand how. They walk erect, and vigilant, regardless of the obvious presence of a weapon. You can spot them from a mile off, just like you can spot the shifty ones. I sat in the car the other day while my wife was in the grocery and watched some fellow as he watched people leave their cars. When they went in the store he would follow them in, then turn around and come right back out and walk in the direction in which they had come. He was up to NO GOOD! I don't understand how the store manager or security gurad missed it. Most people, walk with their heads down or paying no attention to what is going on around them. Heads in the sand, hands in their pockets, their backsides hanging out, don't know where they been or the direction their headed. I don't and won't carry a fanny pack, but always concealed and I've never been bothered by an LEO even though there is no doubt in my mind that I have been made by police. Those that I know that have, generally nod, speak and walk on by. Heck, I had one shake my hand at the Shoney's one afternoon. But never a word was spoken about a weapon. Does the criminal element notice? Probably some do but most of the malcontents who hold up the local gas-n-go are in too much of a hurry to grab what they can to get their next fix. What they don't expect because of the masses of sheep is when they grab a hold of a grey 55 yr old rotund gent when all of sudden, the next thing is that they have experienced a number of very sharp deepening pains. It's far better to remain a very common looking citizen, going about commerce in normal day to day fashion always maintaining a high level of situational awareness and ready to act, NOT REACT. Reaction is always late, action is on time. Most who see and suspect I'm armed are just like me and I'm not worried about them. It's the one that would break into my home, jump me in the parking lot or the gas station yard that I'm always watching for. Rememeber, I said that I take my bride of 37 years to the grocery. I drop her off at the door and I pick her up at the door; and baby, I'm ready!