I spot people carrying occasionally, but I'm sure I miss the vast majority.

I prefer concealed carry to open for all the reasons listed above. Also, if cops have to take the time to check me out and make sure I'm legit, I'm wasting their precious time. I think they have better things to do and are busy enough as it is.

For those interested, Keith Jones, who is a retired cop and the winner of four gunfights, wrote a chapter in Marshall and Sanow's Street Stoppers entitled Gunfights and ammo, the big picture. Jones talks quite a bit about the mindset and attitudes of criminals and asserts that they can actually be quite predictable when we stop filtering their behaviors through our thinking, but instead take the time to understand (understand, not condone) how they think. IMO anything Keith Jones has written is well worth the reading. His writing is not as well known as Jim Cirillo or Mas Ayoob's, but IMO just as well worth seeking out and reading.

+1 on Keith Jones. He just did a guest lecture for us at a Lethal Force Institute course last week in Indiana. Powerful knowledge, powerful speaker.

I think people that belive that they can "spot" someone carrying concealed by simply observing an individual's demeanor are deluded.

An individual could burst into flames in front of one's eyes.....and 99 % of the public would not take notice. It's part of the human condition, particularly in our culture, to be self-absorbed.


Make of this what you will.....My 2 cents and worth exactly what you paid for it.

- regards

lived in colorado for a few years. 'bout 15 years ago. law then was open carry. as long as you can see it, and you were not in place that served alcohol, it was okay. my only transprotation was a motercycle, and i open carried to the range once or twice a week. it was legal, it was my RIGHT, and just how was i suposed to get my guns to the range and back otherwise? couldn't do the same in Denver. wasn't legal there. didn't matter 'cause i didn't live or go to Denver. never once did i ever have an issue with the "man". here in Cali. if you have a permit to carry, the gun has to be concieled(still don't know how to spell that word) if your "printing" or openly showing your c.w. it's a felony. if your carring a gun that is not listed on your permit it's a felony. yet your first concieled (theres that word) wepon charge is a misdomener, as long as the gun is the only crime. great laws we have in cali, huh.

My 2 cents:
Just retired from PD in S. Florida. Military before that. With my background known, my family and friends always assumed that I was the authority on guns and carry. The only real indepth knowledge I possess is in the field of "Eating" and I've got 40 extra pounds to prove it !
A lot of good points are written above, thank you. My thoughts on a few of them that I learned through trial and error.
1. Do I place it in a Fanny pack, purse or riding skin? It is not the most important question to ask youself as your heading out the door; ask yourself, as you pick up your gun, will I really use it without warning or hesitation today, if the situation calls for it? Am I knowledgable in its use? What if I hit an innocent, while taking out the suspect, can I deal with it? OR is this gun just a security blanket.
2. Have a gun that you will actually carry, one that is as comfortable in carry as your wallet or cellphone. My 357. S&W Air-Lite PD in the front pocket of my "Tommy Bahama" shorts. No profile, just one example. How long does it take you to bring that concealed gun into play?
3. If he (Cop or Suspect) has made your carry, before you noticed them, PROBLEM. If you have already spotted and assessed his threat value,ADVANTAGE FOR YOU! My innocent 10 year old son will give you this exact answer if asked , "What is the key to survival? "Being aware of your environment, Dad. "
4. Most of the Alfa Male criminals who committed physical assaults that I encountered, never gave a second thought to a whether a pack or purse carried a gun, only if they could overwhelm their target with force, to relieve them of that pack or purse. Police on the other hand tend to focus on hands, waists and bulges. Their training.
5. Are criminals smart? Well most cannot fill out a job application, but alot of those guys are driving nicer cars than us, have more money in their pocket than we do. Answer; They are good at what they do for the most part, making some of us out for good victims. Criminals are not deterred by the threat of guns.
6. When that criminal starts determining your rating as a victim/financial source, whether he spots your carry or not will only determine the volume of his first strike. How many uniformed police officers are attacked and killed each year, carrying that visible gun that they qualify with twice a year.
Let this be the SH--Head's final question to Satan as he stands at the gates of Hell, "How the hell did I get here?" Satan's reply, " Remember that little fat guy wearing the "Tommy Bahama" shorts that you tried to march into the cooler at Subway's last night, he was carrying!

Bubba1

I was trained by a former Marine who spent two tours in VietNam as a helicopter doorgunner. Upon his return to the US, he became a Port Authority police officer and spent 15 years working steady midnights on Times Square and another 9 years at Newark Airport. I learned to watch everyone and be suspicious of any behavior that was slightly out of the ordinary and take the initiative in dealing with it before it deals with me.

I trained with him for 15 years before I passed the final test and graduated. I didn't get a diploma; I got a divorce.

Bubba1 has confirmed what I have always suspected and assumed - there are some BG's out there who can generally take out an armed victim before the victim knows what's happening. Telling that kind of BG that you have a gun simply prepares him better for his initial contact and may give him yet another reason to rob you. Sure, a weapon may scare some folks off. But I seriously doubt that it scares every BG. Your demeanor, whether it actually reflects your capabilities or not, is more likely to be a deterrent.

I suspect that situational awareness and ready access of a useful weapon or technique count a lot more in the end than mere temporary possession of a weapon.

quote:

Originally posted by Out West: ...I have to ask a question: are criminals that smart? ...I carry concealed legally, why should I be worried about a police man's attention? ...

The short answer is Yes, some of them are. But, the long answer must include the drugs, alcohol and their level of "need" the money that is pushing them. And as for your contact with LEOs that is about 'normal' for Officers who are gun friendly but unfortunately there are more and more of them who are not and or have been 'brain washed' by the liberal media and educators into believing that private citizens shouldn't have firearms. More and more of them have come to 'believe' that only the Good Guys - Police Officers - should be allowed to have them. Unfortunate, but too true. I have been teaching concealed carry for many years including to LEOs who are Off Duty because once they are out of Uniform they become John Q Citizen and need to remember the same things the rest of us do. Control and Concealment and Remember are the three most important things to do when carrying. Control - make sure your weapon is ALWAYS with you and I believe this means "on your person". Concealment - make sure your weapon is ALWAYS concealed and never becomes visible to others. This might mean wearing an extra long vest, coat or shirt etc. If nobody knows you are carrying then there is no reason for you to become a target of a gun thief. Remember - make sure you are ALWAYS aware that you are carrying.

quote:

Originally posted by Massad Ayoob:
+1 on Keith Jones. He just did a guest lecture for us at a Lethal Force Institute course last week in Indiana. Powerful knowledge, powerful speaker.

Massad, when you talk to Keith would you invite him to join us here? I've lurked on Evan Marshall's forum for a long time and miss Keith's posts there. I'm not sure what happened that caused him to stop posting there and I recon it's none of my business. I hope all is well with him.

Already did, bro. :-)

I'm guilty of basic profiling. When I see "street thug" dress, or obvious body language...particularly when it's a pleasant 80 degree evening but the fella is dressed in sweatshirt hoody with sunglasses and he's got his hand way down in the pocket..yeah.. I'm watching really close.
I also tend to try and spot the good ol white boys..blue jeans, ball cap, everything about their body language saying "yeah..give me a reason to be pissed and I'll get all over yer stuff" I'll get alerted to something about their dress or the way their shirt isn't tucked....looking for IWB, etc...most times though.. my eye catches the bulge of a handgun..yeah, it's cover with ashirt, but it's so obvious. I used to measure obvious by my wife's noticing or not, but when she took her own CWP course she became more aware and she spots em more than I do now.
At the same time, I've many times been standing right next to LEO or security with my belt pouch in plain view..even when they've asked me (just this past week) to step out of my truck while they do a mirror sweep and have me open the back for visual. I've noticed that there are some very dedicated LEOs that are on the ball and are gun savy...and then there are others that are a new breed of "hug a thug" trained and their sidearm is an evil tool that they pull only for minimal qualifying time. This from conversations I have with them when standing around festivals, etc.

Out West[/QUOTE]

Cops and bad guys are often looking for the same things, just from different perspectives and goals in mind. In the situation I described I would have been well withinn my right to pull that guy off his motorcycle at gun point. I know alot of cops (especially new ones) that would have in a heartbeat. Armed man riding around a part of town that has had lots of robberies, easy to articulate.
You may be carrying legally but why would you want the hassle of being stopped and questioned?
You are really better off being the grayman and blending in and practicing good situational awareness.[/QUOTE]

Ever heard of the second amendment? In the Free state of Virginia suits are being won aginst illegal detentions like you are advocating. Stopped and questioned for what?

VaJohn, always be sure of your target before you shoot. Also, check your sources before you attribute a quote.

Out West

quote:

Originally posted by Out West:
VaJohn, always be sure of your target before you shoot. Also, check your sources before you attribute a quote.

Out West

opps!! my foul, appology offered. Quote should have been for oneminute.

Everyone on this board is acutely aware of the various carry issues. Most of the general public (sheep), are not. Fanny packs are as common as crooked politicians and very few folks out there see one and think "gun". My neighbor, retired CHP 27 years, carries in a black fanny pack identical to mine. He says the only folks that think "gun" when they see it are LEO's or fellow CCW holders. Either way, no problem(assuming you are carrying legally).

I like the fanny pack as I can reach my MP9C easily even when driving. Just adjust the seat belt so it doesn't block your access. Plenty of room for an extra magazine or two. They are easy to stash in the car in the event I have to go in someplace that prohibits carry. Worn low across my stomach I can control anyone trying to get their hands on it as well. Works for me.