Pretty amusing, Dude.

Yeah, Scott, maybe God is trying to tell you something.

quote:

Originally posted by therevjay:
flop-shank:

From what I've read the CCI maxi-mag +v's do indeed give the highest vel.

But I decided to go with Winchester super X, for the following reasons.

Since it's pretty much a sure thing no .22mag is going to develop enough vel. to expand (comeing out of a 1 5/8" Bbl.) I want to go for penetration. Which I think you'll get more of with the 40gr. FMJ Winchester. which also looks like it may well tumble on impact.(a fringe bennie)

But either one will most likely take at least two shots to stop a chargeing water buffalo

My Black Widow (2" barrel) got 17"+ in Perma-Gel (four layers denim) with maxi-mag+V. My experience with P-G tells me that most bullets, excepting wadcutters, will tumble. Of interest is the fact that I got 13 1/2" penetration in bare P-G with a .22 lr. CCI Stinger. I haven't tested the round you use, but think powder type may mean more than bullet weight in these guns, BUT I'm sure the ammo you're using will penetrate just fine. I've actually considered using Stingers because of the risk of overpenetration with +Vs. The reason I've stuck with the +Vs is that if I get down to using a NAA I'm in a battle from hell and at that point overpenetration is probably no issue. At least one gun is dry, and any bystander not deserving a Darwin award is on the ground or halfway to the next county by then.

DUDE (and others)

In your scenarios #1, #2, & #4 I'd walk away even if I were carrying my 1911. I'm not an LEO, and my life is/was not in danger.

In scanrio #3, I'd go anyway, because I really crave fresh bagels.

JERRY

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gold40,

Well, I have given up on the .25 and have bid on a single-action CZ-70 in .32 ACP. I hope that this will be a worthwhile investment. While the pistol is a bit bigger, I'll be getting 100% more energy transferred to a 33% heavier bullet. This translates to more pentration in a self-defense situation. (And we all know how important THAT is!)

Perhaps God is trying to tell me something! (Thanks, Erich!)

Scott

I used to think that I'd like to collect one each of the "quality" manufacturers of classic .25 ACP pistols. There's some really high quality all steel guns from the 1906 to 1968 time period, offering different design features and styling. Many of them have gotten expensive in the last few years since I first thought of the notion. It'd be fun but the idea hasn't gotten off the ground. Too many S&Ws, Winchesters, Colts, and US Military guns out there to mess with .25 auto pistols. The guns and the cartridge are entertaining but not too hot for serious self defense.

quote:

Originally posted by Dude:
Buy the .25 Auto because -
- it is cute
- it is mechanically interesting
- it easily carried

Here is how a .25 can help you in a self defense situation:
1) You are down to a 1/4 tank of gas and need to fill up. You notice burglar bars and plexiglass surround the gas station attendant. You decide to find a gas station in a better neighborhood because you only have a .25-caliber pistol.
2) You are lingering over the beef jerky at your favorite convenience store and 4 male minority group members between the age of 16-24 walk in. You leave immediately without buying anything because you only have a .25-caliber pistol.
3) It's 10 p.m. and you realize you are out of bagels for breakfast tommorrow and want to pop out to the grocery store, but you stay home because you only have a .25-caliber pistol.
4) You are standing in line at a grocery store and the biggest, baddest, 400-pound redneck you've ever seen smacks his wife across the face right in front of you. You leave and call the cops because you only have a .25-caliber pistol.

See the .25-caliber pistol can be an excellent judgement enhancer. No fuss. No muss. No lawyers and no bloody mess.

1) I'm not going to even BE in that part of town, because there's nothing there I can't get elsewhere. And I always have more than enough gas to complete my trip.

2) I don't patronize stop-n-robs or liquor stores. That's a ghetto thing. Besides, Slim Jims aren't good for me.

3) At 10 PM, I'm busy uncorking a nice bottle of wine so we can have a nightcap. Besides, there's a fresh baked loaf of bread cooling on the counter for brekkie.

4) My ONLY responsibility is to call 911 and report a murder in progress. Even the cops hate to have to deal with domestics.

ttpete is absolutely right. In most of these scenarios I wouldn't interfere other than calling 911 even if I had a 6 inch 44 magnum in a shoulder holster.
The whole discussion on .25 Auto seems so silly. These wre the guns of the past - mainly in Europe between WWI and WWII. Today the manufacturers do everything they can to put as large a caliber in as small a package as they can. Seecamp in .380 is the same size as Seecamp .25 ACP, NAA Guardian in .32 ACP and a new Ruger LCP are not much bigger - why settle for a much inferior caliber and seek some unusual and probably quite expensive ammunition?

+ 1 mecenas. 25 ACP is old school. Why pack a 25 ACP when you can get something like the Ruger LCP? The LCP is a tad longer and taller but lighter in weight than any all steel 25 ACP I know of. Plus, the price of 25 ACP ammo defies logic.

My, my, what a bunch of naysayers.
Of course the .25acp isn't much and certianly not the best choice for a primary weapon. But there are times when a tiny pocket auto and deep concealment are the best or only choice.
Back in the early 80s, long before legal concealed carry, Kel-Tech, LCPs or other ultra lightweight guns there were very few options for a really small, compact pistol. You had the Seacamp which was extremely expensive and nearly impossable to get or you could pick from a variety of .22 and .25 pocket autos.
I chose the PSP-25 in .25acp and have never regreted it. The PSP (now PSA) is a licensed copy of the Baby Browning. PSA home page here, Review here. BTW: don't let the MSRP fool you. These guns show up on the auction sites from time to time. Often in excellent condition and usually at about half the cost of an original Baby Browning.
The PSP is a quality weapon. In the 20 some odd years I've owned mine I've probably put a thousand rounds through it and not once has it ever failed in any way.
During the late 80s and on until 2000 I did volunteer work that often carried me into some of the less desirable parts of town at night. Due to the nature of this work, deep concealment and discretion in a carry gun were required. That little PSP was in my pocket every time. Certianly I would have prefered a larger gun in a larger caliber. However, circumstances dictated that the PSP-25 was all I could use. I had complete confidence in the tiny gun and still do.
Its already been pointed out that one must change tactics when using a "mouse gun". Forget center mass. Instead, point the gun right into the BGs face and pull the trigger..several times! While he's confused, in pain and wondering where this blood is coming from, you run like HELL! Ok, you might get lucky and actually drop him, just don't count on it. Take advantage of the moment to get away.
After all, what is the real purpose of a defensive firearm? Its not to kill the bad guy or even stop him. Its sole purpose is to save your life. So as long as you can make a clean getaway, who cares what happens to the perp after that? The gun has served its purpose and you're alive to tell about it.
Of course today we have much better choices for tiny pocket guns in .32 or even .380. But I think I'll stick with my little .25. First, I already own it so there's no need to spend more money. Second, It is still smaller than just about anything else out there. Third, I'm very familar with it and shoot it quite well and finally, I trust it completely.
So flame away if you wish. But I maintain that a quality .25 is enough to get the job done.

Here's my "Baby":

No flame here. I'd carry that as a deep concealment BUG or as a third gun. It the situation dictated I would carry it as a primary. There's a lot to be said for a gun that has proven to be reliable. What are you loading it with, Grayfox?

My carry load is the Winchester Super X 45gr Expanding Point ammo. I really doubt it will expand at all. Winchester states that the real purpose of the little steel BB stuck in the hollow point of the bullet is for reliable feeding and not to help expansion.
For practice and plinking I use the CCI Blazer 50gr TMJ load.
I've found both of these loads to be completely reliable and shoot to point of aim at 7 1/2yards out of my gun.

Thanks Grayfox for the nice post, photo, and links.

I agree 100% with GRAYFOX, and have had similar experience carrying a .25 in bygone years.

His Baby Browning is much nicer than mine; but mine seems to have been carried much more often.

I still carry it, sometime.

JERRY

I have a couple of pocket pieces that I carry occasionally. The Browning is a .380.

Oh well, my 2 cents to this discussion is this. The .25 auto may not be better than no handgun! If it inspires confidence in one's ability to defend oneself against real world assaults, then I would fear some might take risks that they otherwise might not. At typical serious social interaction distance, I would much rather have a good, stout cane or knife or even pepper spray and good unarmed techniques or perhaps a knife or a combination these.
The point of a handgun is to have a weapon that one can carry all the time that is a compromise between effectiveness and weight and size. The .25 has always been a poor stopper. A person shot by one may die from it later but the odds are that they will live long enough to do one harm if they wish and have the means to do it.
People in the past carried and used the .25 auto. The choices in a very light and concealable handgun were limited. They never were good stoppers except perhaps in the situation where the attacker was warded off just by the sight of some sort of pistol.
People widely used cap and ball revolvers many years ago and plenty of people were killed by them. I do not think very many people would chose one for a carry weapon today unless they had nothing else. I know I certainly would not.
Attacks are very frequently fast, fluid and dynamic events. The ability to deliver good hits to the face and head with any gun at very close range with a moving target is at best difficult. The .25 is not even going to reliably get through the skull. I have also seen people shot in the face and head with larger caliber weapons who kept on fighting.
If you have ever actually been in one of these situations, then you know that Murphy's Law reigns. If I had nothing but a .25 in such circumstances, I think I would regret it. With the designs and light weight materials of today, there is no reason to depend on a .25 to stay alive. Also, remember that you may be betting the life of your wife/husband/kids/friends/partner, etc on such a weapon. If you just want one to play with and/or collect that is fine. If you carry one to defend yourself I urge you think about the worst case situation and really see if you would want to bet the life of you and yours on a .25. I would not. I might just rather have the proverbial "sharp stick".
One last point. The BG may be well armed and know how to use it. Such people do pack large, high capacity handguns or more. I took a Colt .45acp Gold Cup off a criminal as well as a variety of S&W .38s, .357s, .44s and .45s. Also,criminals do go to ranges and practice. There are many who have been in gunfights and have survived gunshot wounds. They are experienced in violence and may have killed others before. Do you really want to defend yourself and/or your wife or daughter or son from such a beast with a tiny .25 auto???
That was not a flame. I do not know what experiences others here have had and I don't think I am the master of CQB. I just have experienced first hand having to use a handgun against an attacker and know I always wished I had more going for me than whatever I had...Self defense is no fantasy world or game. You owe it to yourself and those you care about to carry a competent weapon and train to use it..I hope no one here ever needs it..Best Wishes to All