I have just read Massad Ayoob's article on the new S&W M&P 9 Pro in the latest issue of GUNS magazine. One of his test results puzzles me. Ayoob fired his all-time personal best score on the IDPA Classifier with his test pistol! Think about that -- Ayoob has been a significant competitor for many years, and he fires a personal best with a pistol that is far less familiar to him than his own pistols. OK, similar things have happened. Even more puzzling to me is the fact that his particular S&W M&P 9 Pro's trigger has slight, but clearly perceptible, over-travel after the trigger releases the shot.

Just how does any shooter using such a trigger keep the pistol from moving off target when shooting rapidly enough to be competitive in IDPA or in IPSC or in actual combat?

Ayoob did it. I assume that Ayoob and many others can do this as a matter of course. How do these shooters do it?

Practice, practice, and some more practice. Seriously, one should first look at the COF and requirements of the class. I don't know what Mas has used in the past in SSP class, but one usually sees Glocks, with some Berettas and a smattering of others. For this old 1911 shooter, the hardest part of shooting a Glock well is dealing with overtravel, with the unnatural grip angle (for me) second. The Smith has a 1911 (roughly) grip angle and points well, and the few I've picked up had lots less overtravel than most non-customized Glocks. And, the accuracy necessary on the IDPA classifier course is not at Bullseye level. Mas Ayoob has often written that he shoots DA revolvers as accurately or more so in DA than in SA mode. Perhaps the Smith trigger is an easy transition from the double-action-trained trigger finger Mr. Ayoob possesses.

Mas, if you're around, why don't you answer this, so we don't just sit around speculating? (Much as we love speculation... )

Overtravel is severely misunderstood by most shooters.

The dogma of "no overtravel" comes mostly from the hunting side of things (not a group noted for its marksmanship ability in general). These are the guys who want a single stage rifle trigger with no overtravel at all.

Their usual argument is that they do not want any trigger movement after the sear releases so as not to disturb the aim. Now think about that for a second. In a trigger without overtravel, the force of your finger pulling on the trigger has nowhere to go the instant the sear breaks and it is all transmitted to the rifle.

My Anschutz prone target rifle has a two stage trigger with a total pull weight of four ounces (that is both stages) and huge amount of overtravel. With lots of overtravel, your finger meets no resistance to movement just after the sear breaks and cannot distrub the rifle while the bullet is in the bore.

Think about it.

Wyatt, you are correct, as far as it goes. However, there's quite a difference between the effect of overtravel following a 4 oz. pull on a 10 lb. rifle, and overtravel following a 6 lb. pull on a 2 lb. pistol. I do know what you mean, though, and the detrimental effects of overtravel on accuracy vary greatly from shooter to shooter.

Wyatt, when you're slung up with a fair amount of tension and the rifle is tucked into your shoulder, the effect of trigger overtravel or lack of same doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I've spent a lot of time in a sling, mostly high power time, out to 1000 yards.

Lots of insightful comments here. Classic example of why I love this forum.

S&W38, I think a big reason that the pistol and its shooter survive overtravel in this scenario is the relative degree of accuracy required. Overtravel, aka backlash, was a big deal to me in my younger days when I shot a lot of bullseye and PPC. We were shooting at small center rings and ovals at distances of up to 50 yards.

On the IDPA Classifier, the primary mark is an 8" diameter Down-Zero zone, and the Classifier's maximum distance is 20 yards. This reduces the relevance of the relatively small movement of the gun that can be caused by backlash in the instant between sear release and ignition.

If we don't get rained out, I'll be shooting that particular M&P 9 Pro (yeah, I bought it after the test) at an IDPA match tomorrow. Will let you know how that works out.

Us? Insightful? Aw, shucks... Thanks, Mas!

quote:

Originally posted by S&W38: Just how does any shooter using such a trigger keep the pistol from moving off target when shooting rapidly enough to be competitive in IDPA or in IPSC or in actual combat?

I think the simple answer to this is in the short distances involved. Moving the muzzle a full half inch one way or the other isn't going to have enough effect on the bullet point of impact at 15 feet to take the shot off target - that's assuming the shooter was "On Target" to begin with when he fired the shot. And, I'd guess the amount of movement was considerably LESS than 1/2" at the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by ttpete:
Wyatt, when you're slung up with a fair amount of tension and the rifle is tucked into your shoulder, the effect of trigger overtravel or lack of same doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I've spent a lot of time in a sling, mostly high power time, out to 1000 yards.

Apparently you haven't shot a lot of smallbore, much less metric smallbore.

While the target may only be 50 yards or meters away, the NRA 10 ring is .89" (just under 2 MOA) in diameter and the ISSF 10 ring is 10.4 mm (.75 MOA). The X rings are obviously half of that.

Anschutz wouldn't set up their triggers with lots of overtravel if it didn't help. You can adjust it away if you want, but having it tried both ways I want as much as I can get.

In my game, the x-ring was bigger than the bullet. But, you had to be able to dope the wind, and also deal with rapid fire. We shot in the rain, too. Only thing that would stop a match was lightning.

quote:

Originally posted by ttpete:
In my game, the x-ring was bigger than the bullet. But, you had to be able to dope the wind, and also deal with rapid fire. We shot in the rain, too. Only thing that would stop a match was lightning.

I shot Highpower and Long Range for several years. Time constraints led me to give them up this season but I still shoot smallbore prone.

And truth be told I enjoy the more relaxed pace and more civilized comforts of smallbore a lot more.

Yo, S&W38...promised you I'd get back with the results after shooting a match with the M&P9 Pro. This was the same gun I wrote about that's on the cover of the September GUNS magazine.

Match was yesterday, just got the results, which will be posted Monday or Tuesday on club website, www.firstcoastidpa.com.
Managed to win SSP (Stock Service Pistol) and overall, shooting this gun for the first time in competition. 6 points down over 5 stages, 5 of them from one bad hit on "hard cover" which, shooting weak hand only, I didn't catch in time to make up.

The pistol worked great throughout. No malfunctions of any kind. The fiber optic front sight and the cleaner trigger pull are both well worth the modest price increase on the Pro model. This was particularly apparent in Stage Four, which I managed to win. Each of four targets must be hit twice each center mass past replicated hard cover, shooting weak hand only, then minimum one head shot apiece on same targets, strong hand only. It was an excellent test format for showing that the modest backlash on the Pro's trigger had no discernible effect on accuracy at practical distances as opposed to, say, 25 or 50 yards.

Chris Christian won Enhanced Service Pistol using an M&P9 with standard barrel and LPA sights, and came in second overall. Jon Strayer won Custom Defense Pistol shooting an M&P45 with Blazer 45 hardball against the 1911s and came in third overall (54 shooters total if my count is right). Roger Clark, shooting in only his 3rd IDPA match, took First Novice with an M&P45 in CDP. Roger's has a safety, which he uses and releases after each draw with no loss of time. Finally, Gail Pepin, current FL/GA regional woman's IDPA champ, won high woman shooting a Military & Police in competition for the first time, a stock M&P9 that she won last year at the New England Regional Championships.

On a higher level than ours, I watched Julie Goloski win the woman's title at the 2006 National Championships with a 9mm M&P. Ernest Durham and Scott Warren have kicked major butt at large competitions with M&P autos, and current CDP national champ David Olhasso is said to have recently switched to the M&P from the XD45.

Overall, I'd have to say that the gun's performance confirms my belief that its small amount of backlash has a negligible effect in this sort of shooting. The M&P's excellent trigger reach, three optional backstrap panels, and other ergonomic design elements help the index finger to track the trigger straight back during firing, which also minimizes effects of trigger overtravel.

Best,
Mas

It's amazing that after all these instances of documented, measurable performance excellence, some people still cling to their opinion that S&W's traditional DA/SA autos are worth bringing back. They are usually those who, 21 years after the Glock 17 showed up, still refuse to concede that plastic frames are a good thing and are here to stay. Ned Ludd would be proud of them.

The only advantage 3rd gens have over the M&Ps is a thinner slide. And that advantage is more academic than practical.

Oops, correction. That was Ernest LANGDON who nailed all those great scores with the M&P while shooting for S&W.

Massad Ayoob, thank you for for answering my question in such detail, first as extension of your recent article, and then with further information learned in open IDPA competition with your peers.

And thank you to 38-44HDS45, Wyatt Earp, ttpete and KKG for putting my question into a larger context of general handgun and rifle marksmanship.

Yes, I'm going to print this thread. I'll file that print with my own copy of the September 2008 issue of GUNS magazine as a special supplement to Massad Ayoob's article on the S&W M&P 9 Pro.

Once again, thank you all for your extra efforts.