While I don't ordinarily use the 205s on my 60LS, I like having them as an option for just the kind of situation CombatDiver mentioned - when my position is compromised.

Like the gun itself, better to have it and not need it than not have it when needed.

I shoot 3-5 times a week. At home with .22s three-four times a week and bigger guns every two weeks at indoor range club. I've reached the point with my snubbies that I don't even see sights anymore when I fire (7yds and less) I'm afraid looking for laser would cut my five fast shots down to 3 or four. In SD shooting I'm not looking for surgical precision, I want 5 in COM as fast as possible and nothing slowing me down. Just ordered S&W 317 to use as "trainer" for my 64X and an Advantage Arms .22 upper for the G23 "trainer". My approach isn't fancier sights, it's to shoot a lot more!

Just my style, nobody has to concur.

Laser sights are good for some situations and bad for others. They can also be a crutch, encouraging poor shooters to rely on gadgets instead of good training (sight picture and trigger control).

The biggest problem I have with CT laser grips on a J frame is gun handling safety. It's impossible for me to handle the gun in a safe manner (trigger finger off the trigger and above the trigger guard) without blocking the laser path.

quote:

Originally posted by wjh2657:
I shoot 3-5 times a week. At home with .22s three-four times a week and bigger guns every two weeks at indoor range club. I've reached the point with my snubbies that I don't even see sights anymore when I fire (7yds and less) I'm afraid looking for laser would cut my five fast shots down to 3 or four. In SD shooting I'm not looking for surgical precision, I want 5 in COM as fast as possible and nothing slowing me down. Just ordered S&W 317 to use as "trainer" for my 64X and an Advantage Arms .22 upper for the G23 "trainer". My approach isn't fancier sights, it's to shoot a lot more!

Just my style, nobody has to concur.

I concur..although I might get one for my SP101 just for fun...lasers are a great way to get new people interested in shooting...all that top of the sights must be aligned stuff is too much for some of them....

Not needed.

Laser: look at target for the red dot (focal point). Find the red dot and try to stabilize it.

Point shooting: look at a small spot on the target and designate that as a focal point. Align the gun vertically with your visual centerline, keep it parallel, use a convulsive grip, and shoot.

Point shooting is faster and it lacks the "ego" disadvantage of the bobbling red dot (same problem with sighted shooting where the front sight constantly moves and the trigger is mashed in an effort to shoot while the sight picture is "perfect").

I believe that you'd be better off to buy $350 worth of 22LR and 38/357 ammo and practice properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Photoman44:

The biggest problem I have with CT laser grips on a J frame is gun handling safety. It's impossible for me to handle the gun in a safe manner (trigger finger off the trigger and above the trigger guard) without blocking the laser path.

Photoman:

This is my main complaint about the Crimson Trace grips as well. I have both the Crimson Trace grips and the Lasermax grips for the J frames. Both have their plusses and minuses, but the Lasermax has more on the plus side for me. My solution is to use the Lasermax on my concealed carry pistol, and the Crimson Trace for the house gun.

Best of luck to you,

Dave (BTW, fellow Texan)

Howdy Dave. I'll have to take a look at the Lasermax option. Thanks for the tip.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC77:
A word of warning if you are left handed, you may not be able to adjust it to the left enough to hit were you aim.

Some will say I do not know what I am saying or that they had no problem and if you are one that can get them sighted in great.

I bought a new J-Frame with CT grips allready on it. I could not get it sighted in well enough (way off at 50'). I called Ct and they did admit to me that there grip style lasers have been a problem for left handers and that lefties may not be able to adjust them enough.

If you are left handed and can get them to shoot OK for you great but I just wanted to let in on that problem.

I have gone to a laser that mounts on the rail and it works great (now useing a S&W M&P 40 as CC gun).

I am going to call horse-shit on this one because:

A) I am left handed and have no problem with any of my CT laser equipped guns (P239, P229, P226, SP101, M&P9c, Glock 33, and M&P340CT)

and

B) From the Crimson Trace website: http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=33876.0

Does Crimson Trace Make Left Handed Lasergrips?
on: February 04, 2008, 12:03:47 PM »
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Almost all of our Lasergrips are ambidextrous. Many confuse the placement of the diode housing on the right side of the frame of the gun as it is only meant for right handed shooters. The diode housing is located on the right side simply because if it were on the left side the beam would be obstructed by the controls of most firearms. For most left handed folks they will have no problems with the diode location.

Exceptions would be left handed shooters who use a thumbs forward grip, you will need to lock your thumbs down when using the Lasergrip to allow the beam to pass.

The following models are not lefty friendly.

G-Series - Back of diode housing impacts the thumb knuckle
LG-380 - Discontinued/Inconvenient switch location, replaced by LG-480 which is left hand friendly
LG-210 - Inconvenient switch and diode housing location
LG-226 - Discontinued/Inconvenient switch location, replaced by LG-326 which is left hand friendly
LG-229 - Discontinued/Inconvenient switch location, replaced by LG-329 which is left hand friendly

All other models will work for left handed folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Loomis Guard:
I've got to admit these laser sights look good at the range on a target that AIN'T BLASTING BACK AT YOU!!!!!!

Loomis Guard

And they look even BETTER on one that is!

quote:

Originally posted by cREbralFIX:
Not needed.

Laser: look at target for the red dot (focal point). Find the red dot and try to stabilize it.

This is improper technique. You don't look for the red dot and try to "stabilize" it. You look at the target and the red dot is a visual confirmation of your gun being on target.

quote:

Originally posted by cREbralFIX:
Point shooting: look at a small spot on the target and designate that as a focal point. Align the gun vertically with your visual centerline, keep it parallel, use a convulsive grip, and shoot...

This is essentially the same as shooting with a laser. The only difference is you have positive visual feedback that you are in fact on target. You also have the distinct advantage of being able to determine you are on target when in a un-natural body position, such as tucked away behind cover, crouched down and holding your weapon above your shoulder level to clear a barrier.

quote:

Originally posted by Photoman44:
The biggest problem I have with CT laser grips on a J frame is gun handling safety. It's impossible for me to handle the gun in a safe manner (trigger finger off the trigger and above the trigger guard) without blocking the laser path.

Why does your finger have to be "above" the trigger guard? What is wrong with off trigger and along trigger, on front of trigger guard? Unless your finger is only 2" long, it should rest comfortably along the front of the guard.

Dug this out of the archives, something I wrote awhile and updated just now to make it current...

I always laugh at the reasons folks poo-poo lasers. I'll give you input based on my experience actually USING them, as opposed to just dismissing them (and condemning anyone considering them) for all the reasons someone told me about.

I have had at one time or another 8 different handguns with the CTC laser grips. Currently my carry weapons (SW M&P9c and M&P340) and my wife’s (Ruger SP101) both wear them. My house gun carries a rail mounted light/laser combo (Streamlight TLR-2). The CTC grips hold their zero extremely well. Once set I have never had to make any adjustments, even though I remove them to clean my guns replace them afterwards. My experience is they are very durable and CTC has an outstanding reputation for customer service. Of the 8 sets I've owned, I had one problem that I can blame on them, and one problem that was my fault.

Here are the ones I've owned, the time, and the round counts with the laser grips installed. The P229, P226, P239 and Glock 33 have all been sold. Some with the laser, some I sold the lasers separate. For the lasers I sold, I generally got about 80%+ of what I paid for them. They hold their value well.

P229- My first set of CTC grips. I owned them for approximately 1 1/2 years, approx 2000 rounds fired with them- no problems, except the one I caused. I bought this gun used at a pawn shop and it had the laser grips on it. In fact the lasers are what interested me and made the gun such a bargain. After firing it the first time, I was cleaning it and stuffed a Q-tip in the aperture. I managed to pop the lens out which resulted in a crescent shaped beam that had about a 2-3" length when hitting an object 15' away. I was pretty pissed at myself and called CTC to see what repair would cost. I clearly explained to them what happened and that I bought these used and I had no idea of their history. CTC told me to send them down and they would be repaired at no charge. I sent them off and one week to the day later, I had a package from CTC. They did not repair them, they sent me a replacement set, additionally they included a user manual (which I did not have), adjustment tools, and cleaning swabs. All it cost me was the postage to send them in to CTC. CTC paid the postage to send me the replacement. My experience with this set made me a believer in both lasers and CTC.

Guns I no longer own:
P229- Owned for about 6 months, 500 rounds. These were my first and are what sold me on them.
P226- Owned for just under 2 years, 1200 rounds, no problems.
P239- Owned just under 1 year, 700 rounds, no problems.
Glock 33- Daily carry gun for over 2 years, 3500 rounds, 1 problem. This gun is .357Sig cal, a pretty violent round in such a small package. After about 18 months and 2000+ rounds, I noticed that the laser would go "off" as the gun fired, then come back on as I recovered from the recoil. As I tried to figure out what was going on I examined the grips and found that the switch mounting had failed. With the recoil, it moved and the contacts opened. Yes, a failure. I would like to note though, that they still worked, they just flicked off during recoil. I sent them off to CTC and they were repaired and returned in less than 10 days.

Guns currently owned:
Ruger SP101- Wife’s carry gun for 2+ years, 500+ rounds, no problems.

SW M&P9c- New carry gun to replace the Glock. 750 rounds, no problems. I am quickly becoming a fan of the M&P's, as ammo prices climb I decided to move back to 9mm instead of the pricey .357sig. After putting 700 rounds through my 9c without a single failure, It took over the carry duty from my Glock. Glock was sold with the laser attached and I picked up a set for the M&P as quick as I could. First trip to the range was 250 trouble free rounds.

Sig P229ST – 1 month, 150 rounds. No problems.

SW M&P340CT – Newest addition. Only had it for a couple weeks, 100 rounds so far. Works just as expected and has become a constant companion.

Add that all up and I have over 8 years and over 7000 rounds experience with them and just a single failure, which I note again, did not render them unusable. That is a pretty good track record as far as I am concerned. I replace the batteries twice a year (oh, and with the "free batteries for life" program I have never had to buy batteries for them).

Who am I ? I am a 9 year Marine Corps veteran with 30 years of shooting experience. I’ve helds a WA. State Concealed Pistol License for 17 years. I am an NRA for over 15 years (Endowment Life). I have attended defensive pistol training (Bruce Gray), and done a little IDPA. That said, I feel I am qualified to speak on the matter both as a shooter and someone with laser experience.

Do they replace iron sights? No, you need to be skilled in the basics first. Are they "right" for every situation? No, but if they aren't right, they also don't hinder regular sights or point shooting if you so desire. Can they be a benefit in some situations? SURE. Why not have one more tool in the box? I'll take every advantage I can get.

"Point shooting" can be very useful under the right circumstances and if you have had the ability to train and become proficient. That said, most people aren't able to practice to the point where they will become proficient. Few ranges allow drawing from a holster, let alone shooting from the hip. Even if you do become proficient, it will be useless to you in certain circumstances.

For the "average" person, your best chance of survival is to present a poor target to the threat while getting off some effective shots. In a street combat situation, you should be moving and going for cover/concealment. Standing in one place is the surest way to become a statistic. This ain't the old west where you face off and draw in the street. "Effective" doesn't necessarily mean good sight alignment/sight picture, it means you have a high level of confidence they are going to go where they need to. You might find yourself shooting from the hip, shooting from around an object, shooting while running, turning around and shooting over your shoulder. Regardless, chances are however you do it, you will be looking at the threat. As you look at the threat, seeing that red dot on his chest lets you know that you are on target.

In a combat situation you are going to focus on the threat. It is a physiological response. Contrary to another post, you don't look for the dot and then move it to the target. While you are focused on the target, with the tunnel vision that occurs, you naturally point your weapon to where you are looking. It is an almost automatic eye-hand coordination (which happens to also be the basis for point-shooting). As your weapon comes to bear, you will clearly see that dot when it is on target. It is a very positive feedback and provides the mental "green light" for trigger squeeze.

Lasers can also be extremely beneficial for dry fire and trigger control practice. The laser isn't dancing around on it's own, that is your twitchy hand and jerky trigger pull. You just get to see for a change how much your gun moves as you work the trigger. I love when someone complains about how much the dot jerks around, then when I hold the gun it moves less than my Aunt Ethel when Oprah is on.

Real world police gunfight data shows a huge improvement in the hit ratio of officers equipped with them. I haven't seen ANY data where they were determined to be a detriment or get someone "killed".

There is just something about technology that sets off grumpy old farts. In my motorcycle group they bitch about how they don't need a GPS and they are crap because maps still work, and how they'll break and then you're screwed. In the gun world they bitch about Lasers being crap and they aren't needed for any number of reasons. "They will fail" Shit, any piece of machinery can fail. With that logic the old coots shouldn't be using maps OR guns, they should be using celestial navigation and throwing rocks.

My experience has been that folks who spout absolutes and wax nostalgic on the good ole days tend to be limited in their abilities to grow, evolve, learn, and understand new things. Funny how some of those most verbal against them have never even used them. My personal experience has been that 6 out of 8 "anti's" changed their mind once they actually used one, and the two that don't were just too stubborn to admit they were wrong.

Are they magic? No, do they have a use and purpose? Hell yes.

Admittedly I do not have actual combat experience. While we wait for my trial by fire, let see what the accredited experts have to say...

"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons

"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor

"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute

"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant

"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer

"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate

"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor

"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert


Anyone with even limited exposure to shooting will recognize the names above, and all are held in high regard by the shooting/combat/competition/training communities.

Amen........

Anyone who has CT grips, or is considering buying a set should order this DVD...it's free.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/GetACatalog/tabid/265/Default.aspx

quote:

"Point shooting" can be very useful under the right circumstances and if you have had the ability to train and become proficient. That said, most people aren't able to practice to the point where they will become proficient. Few ranges allow drawing from a holster, let alone shooting from the hip. Even if you do become proficient, it will be useless to you in certain circumstances.

I know that four to eight hours is a long time in today's A.D.D. world, but most people are just lazy and don't get any training past their CCW course.

As for lasers and left-handed people: my thumbs partially (or even fully) blocked the laser on the 1911 and Glock I tried. I shoot "thumbs forward" and I'm not about to change for a $300 crutch. Point shoot when appropriate, use the sights at other times. Totally not needed except in specific circumstances or by certain organizations.

I can certainly see how CT lasers could be useful for people with vision problems.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:Why does your finger have to be "above" the trigger guard? What is wrong with off trigger and along trigger, on front of trigger guard? Unless your finger is only 2" long, it should rest comfortably along the front of the guard.

It doesn't "have" to, but it is safer.

And that's all superfluous, because if I lay that red dot on someone, it means I'm going to touch one off as soon as it comes on target. I don't believe in using the laser as a deterrent. It's an aiming aid, and nothing more. "Safety" is not a consideration at that point. It's time to be as dangerous as possible.

Laser sights are at their very best with J-frames. No better single application exists, IMNSHO; they make "threat focus" using a small-but-adequate bullet-launching device a viable way to get reliable hits on target.
Not a "crutch" at all, rather a bona fide targeting aid.