quote:

Originally posted by NautclRltr:
He is the type that thought that he solved his personal defense needs by purchasing and just carrying the KelTec. I'll bet that he perceived your dumbfoundedness and it will now occur to him to at least shoot a box of ammo. Sometimes people grow in stages, I know I did (25 years ago). You probably influenced him more than you know.

Great post. If the cat is of average, or better intelligence, I'll bet you're right.

HFS!

God bless America

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
A P3AT is the last gun in the world I would carry without test firing it with my carry ammo.

Amen to that. We bought one and it jammed with everything we put through it. Bought a Ruger LCP and it shoots everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Griz:

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
A P3AT is the last gun in the world I would carry without test firing it with my carry ammo.

Amen to that. We bought one and it jammed with everything we put through it. Bought a Ruger LCP and it shoots everything.

Mine went back under warranty. I fluffed & buffed mine, plus a three hundred round break in. I test fired it with my carry ammo (Speer Gold Dot) until I was confident that it's 100% reliable. I keep mine meticulously clean and very well lubed. Anything less with a P3AT is inviting disaster. I'm guessing that the Ruger is no different.

quote:

Originally posted by The Big D:
That's kinda scary.

Does he know how to fire it? Don't laugh at me b/c I would have to look at it for a while to figure out the safety, whether there was one in the chamber, etc. Never fired or held a Kel-Tec, personally.

Be safe.

Your right this is scary....

I was ask to sit in with an NRA Instructor and his class, as well as talk about the aspects of justifiable use of deadly force here in Montana. I got into the first paragraph and the NRA Instructor said, we aint go time for this S%&@.

What is worse that those poeple that paid him $45.00 for the course never did go to the range, but were given a signed off training course as required.

I was in shock that this type of training is being conducted. Range time should be manditory as well as maintaining a certain score to pass for conceal carry and demonstrating that they can handle the firearm in a safe manor.

A guy I know in California went thru the same type of training. I believe a required handgun safety training class, that he said was required before he could purchase his firearm. I asked him, how he did on the range? He said, we had no range time, just class room. I ask what he purchased, and he said a Ruger 9mm but really didn't know what model number.

This is his first gun purchase, and I remember going over this with him prior to his selection. I had told him that since he was a first time gun owner, I would recomend a revolver not a semi auto. I also asked him, (pretend we are at the range on the firing line) if I ask you to take your Ruger P89 to slide lock, what does that mean. His response, "Oh the gun has a safety on it, that make the slide lock".

I tried to explain some things to him, BUT his attatude was that the guy giving the class passed him, and that is all that mattered.

Your damn right it is scarry!

Who exactly asked you to sit in on the class? Doesn't sound like it was the instructor?

Not even test firing a weapon to check for function is reprehensible and can be downright deadly to the owner but the source of the problem is the person and the solution isn't more government intervention, regulation, restriction.

We have no shooting requirement here in VA and haven't had CCW holders killing innocent people because of it. In fact the majority of firearms used successfully for protection are not used by individuals with any particular certification. Why is that do you think?

IMO you shouldn't even have to have a permit to CCW let alone pass some kind of arbitrary TEST, one that was probably put together by an anti-gunner in the legislature. That's just another form of restriction of our 2A rights.

What standard should apply to the range tests that you feel are so important? How about making it the equivalent of the military "Expert" rating.

I mean do you want someone to CCW that isn't an "Expert" shot? If your going to apply a standard why not the highest? And let's make it a requirement with each and every firearm they want to carry.

Perhaps you yourself go in to shoot the new, mandatory requalification when your CCW expires and darn it, you miss the minimum score by one point, we're shooting "Expert" remember. I know, I know. You've carried for decades and have never even pulled your gun and you've always made your shooting scores in the past but today you had an off day.

Please place your firearm in you car. You can come back in 90 days and try again.

Here's a thought. No firearms may be purchased by anyone unless they take a class first. Want a shotgun. Sign up for the class. A professional will speak with you and see if the shotgun you want is really the right weapon for you. If approved you can then proceed to the training phase. If you successfully complete that phase you'll go to the range. Shoot the designated score and you'll get your purchase card to buy the shotgun. Since the above will take about two week, too many people and not enough instructors or ranges you probably shouldn't need the shotgun right away.


Sound like a plan?

Richard Simmons

I see I touched on a very sore spot with you. Is it not expected and required when LEO's and or armed Security Guards are turned loose with a firearm that they pass with at least an 80% score on a B27 silhouette target before they are allowed to carry a firearm?

Let's get real, training is a necessity if one is allowed to recieve a CCW permit. This is not an encroachment of the Second Amendment, but a much needed requirment should the carrier of that firearm they are using for protection need to be used, that the bullets hit where they are intended to hit for self defense.

It is no differant than making you pass a written and driving test for getting your drivers license.

Of course you have the right to agree or dis-agree with my feelings.

actually, this is sooo very common.
Point 1) I never pull my carry piece out in someone elses home. On the occasions when gun talk has come up, it's common for them to bring out some guns to show off, but my carry gun stays put or if I want to show them a new toy, we walk out to my truck, away from family.
Point 2) I've preached to everyone i know that little bug guns can be the most finicky and take extra practice. The little guns are more prone to limp wristing and other problems so that even an "experienced" shooter needs to spend time with the bug.

but I have been amazed time and again when I talk to family and friends and home invasions, etc come up, they'll run get their gun to show me..and it'll be not loaded, they won't know how to use it, they've never fired it, etc.
Examples this past year:
1)wife's lifelong friend - her Dad was a judge, gave her a lil 25 purse gun over 20 years ago. she, now age 48, still carries that pistol but has never fired it, never changed out the original mag of ammo, and has no clue about the pistol.
2)neighbor across the street, came over, sitting on the deck, gun talk came up and he pulled out the keltec 380. said he had been carrying it for months, but never shot it. I took him to the back yard range that very afternoon and he was cussin 10 mins later as he had jam after jam. Part of the problem was his as he was not used to such a small gun.. I carry and shoot a NAA guardian so I tried his gun and cleared up some failures, but the gun/ammo was not ready for prime time.
3)step mother-in-law I was just up to her place in TN 3 weeks ago. a widow living alone in the country. talk turned to the ol man's pistol. Which she kept by the bed, but didn't know how to operate..it was an old cheap 38 wheel gun. had 2 rds in it that she said were at least 20 years old. A trip to the store for a fresh box and a few minutes of gun safety was as much as I could get into her on that visit.
This list goes on and on. The guys who are practicing with their guns? the 14 yr old street thugs who have some dream of making it to the next level in their gang.

quote:

Some poeple are just foolish

What we think is foolish others that have never been around guns don't have a clue. Give your friend an attaboy for at least wanting to carry a gun. That's better than some of the libs out there that fear the very sight of one. If he's a friend tell him what he's doing wrong and help the old boy out. After all he is trying to be one of us so he can't be all bad.

Smitty

quote:

Let's get real, training is a necessity if one is allowed to recieve a CCW permit.

Why? There are no facts that show fewer accidents or bad shootings in states with mandatory training than in those without. One of the great things about a gun is that it can be successfully used by someone with virtually no training.

Then there is that "allowed" thing....

Shorty

Shortranger as stated before:

quote:

Is it not expected and required when LEO's and or armed Security Guards are turned loose with a firearm that they pass with at least an 80% score on a B27 silhouette target before they are allowed to carry a firearm?

So let's just turn everyone loose to spray and pray that no inocents are hit by stray bullets.

God Save Us All

quote:

Originally posted by J_B:
Let's get real, training is a necessity if one is allowed to recieve a CCW permit. This is not an encroachment of the Second Amendment, but a much needed requirment should the carrier of that firearm they are using for protection need to be used, that the bullets hit where they are intended to hit for self defense.

I wonder what course of training George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were required to attend in order to get their CCW? Look to Vermont and Alaska. No requirements, no license and that I hear of, no problems.

quote:

Originally posted by J_B:



So let's just turn everyone loose to spray and pray that no inocents are hit by stray bullets.

God Save Us All

Unfortunately more innocents/bystanders are wounded and killed by law enforcement personnel than by civilians/CCW holders.

As I stated, VA has no range requirement for CCW, we do have a safety training requirement and we aren't killing innocent people here.

How do you feel about guns in the home? Are only CCW holders required to kit their mark?

As far as "touching a sore spot" goes yes you did. Elitist attitudes tend to rub me the wrong way.

Richard Simmons

I'm not being an elitist here. Some states like yours do not require any training, but here in Montana if you want to have a CCW you must either attend a class, have previous military training or go to a Hunters Ed Class.

My comment about the NRA Instructor teaching a class and no range time I believe is a valid concern, wether you think so or anyone else agree's with me. I have simply stated my opinion that does not agree with yours.

I don't need your flames or smug remarks as a result of only opinions stated.

Many purchase a gun for there home for self protection, and is far cry from being out in the masses.

My opinion about required range time was only because of the required classroom time. Don't you feel a person who purchases a handgun and is required to attend an indoor class, should also get the same amount of knowledge in handling that handgun on the range?

quote:

Originally posted by J_B:
Shortranger as stated before:

quote:

Is it not expected and required when LEO's and or armed Security Guards are turned loose with a firearm that they pass with at least an 80% score on a B27 silhouette target before they are allowed to carry a firearm?

So let's just turn everyone loose to spray and pray that no inocents are hit by stray bullets.

God Save Us All

You are mistaking legal liability fears with the actual effect of training. Police departments and guard companies need to be able to say when sued that they "trained" their people in order keep from having their collective asses handed to them in a lawsuit. Depending on how you feel about it you may or may not avail yourself of that same training for the same reason but your state-mandated training is neither going to protect you from a lawsuit nor properly prepare you to use a firearm to defend yourself.

Again: there are no facts or statistics to back up any claim that mandatory training prevents firearms accidents or misuse. In every state that it is required, mandatory training is only in place as a sop to hoplophobes who objected to the very idea of citizens *gasp* carrying guns.

That "spray and pray" crap is a sound bite right out of an anti-gunner's dream.

Shorty