I was wondering if anyone on this forum has experience reloading Cast Performance's .44 (.430) 300g WNFPGC bullet. I am working on a .44 magnum load for my S&W 629-6. The load uses H110 with the starting load at 17.0g and the suggested maximum load at around 19.0g of the H110. My primary question is what would the optimum COL(OAL) be for this load?

I have been seating at around 1.595 without any signs of overpressure at my current load of 18.0g of H110. If I were to seat the bullet to the top edge of the cannelure it would sit at around 1.585. Should I stay at 1.595 or back off some on my charge and start seating to the top of the cannelure?

For the curious, the 629 mountain gun is my sidearm when I'm trekking through bear territory. Yes, it seems light. But it *never* gets left behind because of weight concerns.

Thanks for any assistance with this.

I have played with a similar style of cast 310g.
Your current crimp will likely be fin. Under recoil, they will all migrate forward against the base of the groove anyhow.
Ive since discontinued the use of the 310 grain in favor of a 276 grain HP so as to trade a little weight for speed, gain retained energy due to being sleeker design, and make up for the large hammer head flat on target with a HP.

I have only shot one bear, but I have been in on the "autopsies" of a BUNCH (about 35) all black bears.

I do NOT want a hollow point in ANYTHING when going against bears. They require serious penetration and you really need to "break bone" to stop them. They are VERY muscular and have heavy bones for their size. A good flat point bullet in 250-310 grs is the answer in my considered opinion. Recoil will be severe in a Mountain Gun. I use the Lee C430-RF and it not only HITS (it has a .350" meplat) but penetrates.

Dale53

Actually, the 300g hard cast bullets have *not* been too punishing on recoil thus far. Before working on this load I was carrying the Federal 300g Cast Core bullets. Those were not too hard to manage either. On the other hand, the 300g Sierra soft point load I tried last year was approaching brutal at an equivalent measure of powder. The hard cast bullets seem to be less punishing and I have no problem keeping my shots inside of 5 inches (or less) at 12 to 15 yards.

I purposely chose the 300g WNFPGC with bears in mind. There are a number of people up here who prefer the large hard cast bullets where it comes to the larger critters.

I spoke with one coworker who had a bad experience using .44 magnum hollow points on a large black bear. The first shot did knock it out, but the bear was up within a second or two and very angry. It took a bit more ammo to put it down decisively. An examination of the wound channel showed that the bullet had glanced off the skull and traveled down the neck before stopping. My coworker said he would not use hollow-points on bear again. I will heed his advice.

But I do hear what Venom Ballistics was saying, the bullets will tend to migrate under recoil - even with an aggressive crimp. My main concern is to avoid building excessive pressures as the load moves toward 19.0g of H110. Thus my concern about seating the bullet all the way to the top edge of the cannelure. Will .010 make too much difference with this load? (I forgot to mention that I am using CCI 350 Magnum primers).

Again, thanks to all who can share their knowledge. My own reloading experience is only a couple of years old.

perhaps in your particular intended role, its a good choice for close range anti critter artillery.
I do have to defend my efforts however



To the left we have the Lee 310 grain RNFP, while tot he right we have my 276 grain B-24-A "Liberator". (what biased presentation? )
The 310 grain Lee, is arguably the best design they offer in the caliber. Its not really meant to do much more than hit hard. Seeing as the 44 magnum cannot propel either past the 1450 speed limit, I am of the opinion that the gas check is an unnecessary expense, and an over complication of an otherwise good design.
In aerodynamic comparison, the Lee must drive a large frontal flat through what is at these velocities, highly compressed air. The resistance is quite immense. Also it, like most cast bullets has the added drag induced by its grease grooves, and also the gas check itself, which both act like aircraft spoilers, used to slow them. Mine on the other hand features a tighter, and slightly longer nose in its truncated cone design as well as a lube bearing system of much finer grooves which reacts more like a "dirty" surface rather than an air brake. Incidentally, this system also holds a larger volume of lube. The sum total of its parts is an extended range bullet, capable of being driven full bore, and intended for the hunting environment where pulling feats akin to the late Elmer Kieth, are an ample possibility.
In a world where the trends of cast have come to embrace the WFN principal, the Liberator will retain more of the precious energy afforded in a handgun at greater range .. and still serve up that sacred lung busting crunch we all have come to love.



.... and now back to our irregularly scheduled abnormal programming.


Borealis ....when the gun recoils, it is thrust back. The unfired bullets in the other 5 charge holes would rather remain in the exact point in space they were just before the hammer dropped.
If movement is taken relative to the gun, the bullets try to move forward, which creates more case volume.
the key here is to avoid giving any bullet a running start at the crimp which only increases the chance to bust out of the crimp and potentially jam the cylinder. the lighter the gun, the higher its recoil velocity, which further increases those odds. If it is of concern, then invest your efforts into robbing the bullet of that running start by increasing your COL just to where you can still put a rock solid crimp on it.
As for pushing the load to the living edge, this is ill advised. Load for accuracy and reliability.
in a fight for your life, which is what your are currently loading for, only hits count. You cant miss fast enough to even the score.
Incidentally, I have had occasion to tangle with a black bear while basically screwing around and enjoying the woods. The sidearm was, and remains (like heck ill ever sell it) an 8 3/8" 629-1. The load was 240 grain powder puff SWC's at 980 FPS. I am here. The bear is not. Fear is brown.

you can bet that I'd have liked to have a cylinder full of serious full house gut busters at the time. you can also bet that beyond some odd lab test batches, nothing that I might need to call upon is that light.
None the less, 240 grain SWC's at 980 got me through.
I'd either stand pat with the load you already have, possibly slightly warmed, or look into a 454.

Venom Ballistics,
No need to defend your choices. I understand your reasoning. My deciding on the 300g WNFPCG is also a pragmatic decision considering my weapon of choice and the fact that I venture into brown bear territory. I shoot very well consistently with the 629-6, even using the 300g bullets. I would like to drive them up around 1100 fps or maybe a bit higher, but I have no intention of using a load at maximum pressures. My final load will be one that is manageable and accurate.

I do carry a .45-70 rifle loaded with some fairly hefty hand loads when I'm hunting in brown bear territory. But it was nice to know that I had my .44 strapped to me while crawling through some hemlock and alder thickets where I couldn't have swung a long arm easily.

I think you may be right about the COL. Positioning it for optimal crimp might be the right idea.

Thanks again.

I just figured Id have a little fun before getting down to the brass tacks in the previous post.
I honestly cannot find any major holes in your choice for the role intended (other than the gas check but thats the market I guess)
1100 - 1200 looks like a good place to be for it.
you might want to polish up your skills with it though. 5" at 15y ..... I'd do it only if I had to.
that standard would work ok in the street where engagements are typically pretty close range affairs. its the field based wildlife you really want to start putting critical hits into at no less than 35. Even then a dead charging critter can reach you on merit of momentum.
I shoot at an old 10" flywheel placed out 120 yards to keep current. I used to push myself at ranges of 200 - 250. those 44s can do it.

Sorry that I wasn't clearer on that. What I said was, "I have no problem keeping my shots inside of 5 inches (or less) at 12 to 15 yards". More precisely, it is easy to keep even my worst shots inside of 5 inches at a distance I judge to be typical of an "up close and personal" encounter with a large critter. My grouping with the 629 is normally a bit tighter than that, but my statement safely covers the extremes

Since it is a weapon that my life could rely on, I do practice very regularly with it. I like your idea of pushing the target out beyond normal range for a short barreled revolver. That would certainly hone the skills.

BTW - I am headed to the range this weekend to test my latest batch. These will be at 18.2g and 18.4g of H110. After testing the 18.2g batch I will check for overpressure signs, accuracy and manageability and then check the next batch. I'm also hoping to borrow a chrony for the session. We'll see how it comes out.

Wow! It was a very gusty day at the range. Lots of targets blown from stands, stands tipping over in the wind. Probably more than a few expletives from my fellow shooters. I had to use a few more tacks than usual to hold the targets in place and ended up weighting the stand with a large rock. But it wasn't a disappointing outing.

At 18.2g and 18.4g of the H110, and using a 1.585 COL, the rounds still did not show any signs of over-pressure and were surprisingly manageable and accurate. As discussed, the bullets migrated up against the crimp, but did not jump crimp when churning through a full cylinder. Sadly, I could not lay my hands on a chrony (and it was way too overcast anyways), so I have no idea what the exact fps would be from my 4 inch barrel with these loads.

I will continue to work up slowly and cautiously toward 18.8g of H110, watching for over-pressure signs. The final load will hopefully be over the 1100 fps range and remain manageable and accurate. So far, so good. Now if I could just find a nice sunny, calm day for running these over a chronograph

you'll know when you hit 1100 by the sound.
1100 makes a distinct supersonic crack that changes the overall note of the gunshot.
its not much to work with, but lacking a chrono, its as close as you can get

borealis,
You should checkout Phil Shoemaker's article in the June 2003(issue #223) issue of Handloader Magazine. He talks about the loads he carries in his S&W Mtn Gun while guiding for brown bear, definitely made me rethink what I stoked in my 45 Colt. While now most of the threats I am likely to face are two legged variety, I do indeed remember wading through the alder thickets, wondering if the grizzly bear I had shot was dead or not (he was very dead). I really like my Marlin 1895GS in 45/70, very accurate, and packs a lot of power in a small package.

Dave

High Desert Hunter,
I would be quite interested in that article. I'll have to track it down. And yes, I've been very pleased with my 1895S. I actually hunt for sitka blacktail deer in the Prince William Sound area where the deer are thick. But the brown bears and black bears are in fairly large numbers in the same areas. It pays to carry a large gun that can be used for the deer and, if necessary, the bears.

Venom Ballistics,
Thanks for the pointer on the "crack" with the +1100 fps loads. I'll be listening for that.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/index.cfm?magid=72

I don't know if you have a subscription or not.

I have noticed that some WFN bullets will not chamber in my 66 or 625. I never measured the length of my brass but then I have never seen a .45 ACP case that was ever too long. I think it's more a variation of the cylinder throats. If they are tight in the throats, I'd expect pressures to rise.

Another good bullet is the Lee 255 gr. RF in both the .45 Colt and .45 ACP revolvers. It speedloads quickly with moonclips and I never had any chambering issues.

Dave Sinko

The Cast Performance 300g WNFPGC are at .430, but I haven't noticed any chambering issues with the 629-6 yet. So far the pressures appear to be within acceptable tolerances. I'll be testing out some at 18.6g of H110 soon.

...Forgot to mention earlier that I'm using once-fired Federal cases with this load.