Hello again,

I have been reloading .45ACP for a while now using a Dillon 550B. My standard game load is 3.9/4.0gr of Clays pushing whatever plated 230gr RN that I can find for cheap. Berrys, Xtreme, etc.
Loads have always been accurate enough for me in either my 1911 or my 625. I recently decided to experiment with LRN, due to the rising bullet costs and bought a box each of Silver State 230gr LRN and the same from Missouri Bullets (BHN12).

Using the same amount of Clays and an OAL of 1.230 for each brand. Have put a couple hundred of each through my 625 as that is my current favorite gaming gun and the leading is unbelievable. I tried Chore boy pads, etc and wound up buying a Lewis Lead Remover from Brownells to get the 625 clean. I didn't measure the chambers but either lead bullet will drop through all the chambers from the throat end. I have a chrono date set for next weekend so I'll have to get back with those numbers. I put only 14 LRN (Missouris) through my 1911 and found a single large chunk about an inch past the chamber. The 625 chambers are 100% lead covered from the headspace ridge all the way to the end of the cylinder. The forcing cone has a fair amount of lead as well but the barrel doesn't seem to lead any where near as much as the cylinder and cone.

I was thinking that maybe my Clays load was too hot for lead only but found on another forum that a guy was using 4.4gr of Clays pushing a 230gr LRN to make 165 power factor. If that is true, then my loads are too weak.

Looking for any thoughts, tips, or ideas.

Thanks again,
Dave

I have used Missouri 230gr LRN "Soft Ball" and various hard-cast 230 gr bullets with 3.6 to 3.8 Clays in both my 625s with little if any leading after a 100 to 150 round session. A small ring builds up on the forcing cone and the Lewis Lead Remover is handy for getting that out. Otherwise everything else comes out with a bronze brush or, after a long shooting session, one pass with a Chore Boy.

Have you checked the sizes of the bullets? They should be .452. It is a little unusual for a .452 bullet to simply drop through the chamber throats of a 625 but yours might have throats that are a little larger than usual.

It sounds like you've shot a lot of copper plated bullets. Have you thoroughly cleaned the copper out of the bore? Lead may build up over copper fouling. Clean the lead out and then try some copper fouling remover.

I also run 100 to 200 rounds of factory FMJ though my new guns to (hopefully) smooth the bore a bit before I start shooting lead. You might try that after all the fouling is removed.

Finally, your 3.9 to 4.0 Clays load should not be too hot for cast lead bullets. I found that 3.8gr Clays under Laser Cast bullets averaged almost 800 fps in my 625-3. I've settled on 3.6 to 3.7 gr Clays to make 165 PF with 230gr LRN.

Good luck.

Chris

Thanks, Chris. I did get the chambers, bore, and cone spotless before shooting my last batch (of each LRN)in the 625. I had ran some through prior to that then chased them with plated as I had heard at the time that was a good way to keep the leading down. Have since learned about ironing in the lead with plated bullets so I made it a point to get everything absolutely clean prior to my most recent testing.

I put a hole gage in each chamber then checked that with a caliper and it looks like each chamber is .453

Take care,
Dave

I checked a random amount of Missouri and Silver State bullets and looks like the Missouris are right at .452 (as advertised) the the Silver States look to be .453 for the samples I grabbed.

I too am getting a LARGE amount of leading from my 625-8. I've only put a few hundred various lead and various powder each of about 5 range sessions, and I continue to get more lead in the 1-3" ahead of the cylinder, than I've gotten in 10 YEARS shooting Cowboy action style....

I've cleaned with 4 different lead removers, and it always looks clean before I start.

Using moderate to lower high end powders: clays, W231; Trail boss; Titegroup.
Might as well be using Black Powder.....
Just got a Lewis lead remover today. We'll see.

Regarding the Lewis tool: the video on Brownells shows the guy pulling the brass patch through the cylinder and all the lead is magically removed. My leading was/is so bad that I get the patch started in the chamber throat and spin it by hand rather than pull it through. That gets all the lead out.
Take care,
Dave

You have told your loads and everything but how fast are they??? I have always been told the more you go over 800 fps the more lead you will have to take out of the barrel.

Measure the bullets.

This has the classic sound of undersized lead bullets.

The combination of a light load with hard bullets that are undersized gives gas cutting and heavy leading. With light loads, soft bullets that upset to fill the bore are better.
Bullets the right size are even better.

My loading tables list all my loads in the 800-barely 1000 fps range. In my old IHMSA days we were pushing 44 mags at considerably more than that, with less leading.

I don't know what the problem may be. I've used several different styles and lead casters products, from moderately soft to rather hard. The only load that hasn't leaded was jacketed 185s at about 850 fps, but haven't shot many of them yet.

Continuing field trials.

quote:

Originally posted by m657:
My loading tables list all my loads in the 800-barely 1000 fps range. In my old IHMSA days we were pushing 44 mags at considerably more than that, with less leading.

I don't know what the problem may be. I've used several different styles and lead casters products, from moderately soft to rather hard. The only load that hasn't leaded was jacketed 185s at about 850 fps, but haven't shot many of them yet.

Continuing field trials.

Well, for what it's worth, I load the 200gr SWC TL Lee cast with straight wheelweights to major power over 231 and they haven't leaded in anything they've been shot in.

I shoot them unsized in .45 ACP.

I believe I would be looking for some .454" bullets to try. It would probably be a cowboy bullet of some sort, so I'd check the lube groove to see if it holds enough lube. If not, I'd tumble lube again with Lee Liquid Alox (which may not be a bad idea with what you are using now).

It would also be a good idea to actually slug the throats and the barrel. I used a .44 cal round ball that I bumped up by squeezing them a little in a vise. Just squeeze it and then mic it, until it's the right size. Be sure to lube it when you use it.

If the throats are smaller than the barrel, you've got problems that probably won't go away without sending it to S&W for them to make it right.

I have a 625-6 (5") and a 625-8 JM Special (4"). They have been my most used revolvers in the past few months. I have shot a couple or three thousand rounds through these guns. I've only cleaned them when the outside gets so dirty it makes me self conscious. I NEVER get any leading except some loose stuff in the chambers (cleans out with a couple of runs of a plastic chamber brush).

I cast my own bullets (ww+2%tin) sized .452". The bullets are tight in the throats of my 5" cylinder and a bit looser in my 4" (push through the front with my fingers).

I most always size for the throats of my revolvers. Frankly, I don't know much about leading as I never get any. My .45 Auto had 75,000 rounds through it in five years and all I used to clean it was rod and patches with powder solvent. I would clean, religiously, every 300 rounds.

I would think that too small and possibly too hard of a bullet would be the problem. The real solution is, of course, to start casting your own bullets so you can alloy and size them to your needs.

Dale53

quote:

Originally posted by Bullseye Smith:
I have always been told the more you go over 800 fps the more lead you will have to take out of the barrel.

800 fps will cause leading with swaged bullets, but cast are another story.

About a million factors determine whether a gun leads with cast bullets. Velocity is only one of them. It's entirely possible to run plain-base bullets to 1,400 fps without leading and with astonishing precision - if you have everything else set up properly.


Okie John

You just think you've seen leading. I accidentally fired some light 44 loads through a 45Colt a while back, and found just how much lead a severely undersized bullet can leave. Hard to believe there was enough left of the bullet to exit the barrel. It was all in the rifling! Sounds like there are some newer 45acp revolvers out there with some seriously loose cylinder throats.

quote:

but either lead bullet will drop through all the chambers from the throat end.

That is a problem to be sure. The hardness of the bullet, if it truly is 12bhn is not the problem either. Get it up in the low 20s and that would really be bad!

Not a big fan of Clays. The pressure curve as you increase loads is too steep. Can cause a KB in a heartbeat, been there done that, different caliber different gun.

As for pushing lead over 800fps, bah humbug! I drive some homecast bullets, and thats almost all I shoot, to 1800fps with out gaschecks and with no leading.


Double check your measuring devices for accuracy. I would be a little concerned about a newer firearm that measured that big. I know everything has tolerances but my M625JM shoots .452" lead and .451" plated like a house afire. In fact I just beat my son in PPC with it Thursday night.

Like Paul said, try some .454" bullets. In my experience though you are going to have a hard time with chambering if you go that big. My M625JM chambers don't like don't like big bullets that have a long OAL, been there, done that too!

I shot 100 or so rounds through it just the other night and there is no leading at all in the barrel. Yours should do the same.

If I were you and want to try bigger bullets there is a forum member that sells them. NKJ nut, tennesseevalleybullets.com. Check out some of his bullets. He can usually size to order.

p.s. If you check out my public profile my email address is listed. Send me an email as I want to discuss something with you in private.

Might want to check the roughness of the transition to the cylinder throat, from the main chamber. Then the rifling in barrel. Would also check the forcing cone, especially for an off center cut. IMHO S&W has occasionally been real sloppy with some of throats, forcing cones and barreling (even the big buck models).

Yes, a "broke in" stainless barrel can really reduce the leading potential.