I've not had much success with plated wadcutters from either Rainier or Berry's, but I've gotten some good groups finally with Montana Gold 125 JHP and .148 HDY HBWC at 75 feet. About 1.5" across at best which is very encouraging. However, I still get 10-20% fliers a couple inches from my groups. I'm not clear on how careful to be about two things: chamfering and case length. I bought a 2nd chamfering tool, better than the Lee item I had, but I still feel I'm chattering around inside and outside the case and leaving it rougher than it was in it's trimmed state. What's important to do here? Also how much case length variance is Ok? If I buy new brass or re-use Winchester, for instance, the length runs between 1.145 and 1.155 approximately. Should I be taking care to trim all to 1.145?

I have never done anything to my .38 Special brass. I really see no reason the trim revolver brass. (especially when it's only 1/100 of an inch)

Rainier and Berry as you know are plated bullets and plated bullets have a bad reputation for accuracy. There are reloaders who can achieve good accuracy but they must be reloaded correctly using lead bullet loading data.

Also, powders will have an effect on accuracy. Different powders will work better with different and in different revolvers. What powder are you using?

What I would do is make sure there is no lead or other fouling in the barrel. Then make sure the powder you're using is known to work well with the bullet you're now using. For example, Longshot just doesn't work well at all in a .38 Special application when loading a lead bullet.

Good luck working out this problem.

I've been handloading since 1968, and I've never trimmed a pistol case. I do trim rifle cases, and if you're chattering with your deburring tool, you're working too hard. You're only trying to remove any burrs on the inside and outside of your trim cut.

The only time I've ever trimmed a revolver case was years back when I would trim 357 Magnum cases that developed splits around the case mouth... would trim them back to 38 Special length and then reload using my favorite 38 Special recipe. Eventually quit doing that though as I figured there was just too much chance of somebody else getting ahold of one of those cases and then loading it to full bore 357 Magnum.

quote:

the length runs between 1.145 and 1.155 approximately. Should I be taking care to trim all to 1.145?

I trim my .38spl brass to (around) 1.143" and my .357 mag. brass to 1.278". This takes the headache out of roll crimping to a cannelure, more so if I need a heavy crimp. I'm using RCBS carbide .38spl/.357mag. dies.

Sorry, with a batch of brass that measures 1.145-1.155" I would trim to 1.146". Some of my brass will measure 1.142-1.152" for that I shoot for 1.143" obviously I don't mix my brass.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jibjab,

jibjab, are you making your case measurements after resizing? And can you still get the trimmer into the case then? My used brass, much of it, before resizing is in the 1.138-1.140 area and I'd be throwing lots away. I'm using a Forster lathe type.

Do you have a chronograph?

Most accuracy problems are related to velocity/crimp/seating depth. All can help be realised with a chronograph.
A slightly heavy powder drop can push a DEWC a little too fast and make for flyers. Too loose a crimp on one and can slow em down enough to make a flyer.
Same with seating depth. shorter=faster longer=slower With the same charge (this applies to all ammo)

What powder are you using and how consistent are your loads?
Are you sorting your brass?
Are you over crimping?

My approach in your shoes would be to look at the powder charges first and make sure they were consistent. I would then worry about sorting the brass so similar types were shot in the same group and then finally I would experiment with everything from no crimp to what you are currently crimping.

I size and then trim, I and take measurements after sizing. If I have a batch of .38spl that measures from 1.145-1.152" I'll trim to 1.146" and call it good, and keep it separate from other batches, when I load different bullet types I need to readjust the seat and crimp anyway.
My .357mag brass may need a re-trim after five loadings but the .38spl will stay consistent for many more.
I don't think your short brass is problem but it is nice to get as much length as possible.
For plated WC's I use a taper crimp, I have my best groups with Speer,Hornady and Remington Swaged lead WC's.

Guys, thanks for your responses. My loads are consistent as I've gone to weighing each one and the cases are within 2-3 thousandths of each other. Brass is either new Winchester or once shot match Win. I've run the gamut with Berry's and Rainiers in terms of recommended loads using lead data for Rainier and jacketed for Berry's using 231. My crimps are a light roll with the Rainiers and I cover the radius of the Berry's. I've called both companies, got recommendations from techs at both but nothing is very accurate. So far I've settled on 3.5 gr with an OAL of 1.300 on the Rainier and 3.7 with an OAL of 1.152 on the Berry. I'd like to make the Rainiers work because they have the same POI as I usually shoot with my 686 and M14 which I'm using in this testing. Berry's land 2-3 inches off to the right of aimpoint.

What size groups are you wanting? For long range precision rifle I'd MAYBE see the point to all that work. The only thing I weigh is the powder charge and then only at the beginning of each loading cycle. At 25 yards I still expect 1 1/2" max groups from any of my revolvers and good cast bullets from a hand held but supported rest. Some members of the Forum wouldn't be particularly thrilled with those results! The only thing I'd consider in your case would be to use a good cast truncated cone in the 158gr range.

Well, Wayne, if I'm shooting good factory match WCs, Winchester or Black Hills, I can expect to group a cylinder in an inch or inch and a half using a red dot from a rest. Don't really know what to expect from my hand loads yet as a beginner, but what I'm getting at best is a few shots tightly grouped and two or three fliers, for instance. There's something in my process that isn't consistent yet. Lee's equipment seems a bit funky. I notice that some bullets seat with less resistance than others. Crimps don't always feel the same. I'm tempted to go out and buy someone else's .38 die set, RCBS maybe. Do you have a particular truncated cone (SWC?) in mind? Thanks for your thoughts, by the way.

keppelj: for bullets with a crimp grove try seating and crimping in seperate opperations. If I remember reading Rainer's info correctly their bullets are not to be used with anything but a taper crimp(not sure on this one). I'm not a huge fan of Lee equipment: their single stage presses are ok but I wouldn't trust their progressives. Their regular carbide pistol dies don't size cases as tight as some other makes(there are lots of good ones, I use Dillon). The factory crimp die was a great idea and it has saved me some grief even tho I don't use one all the time. The bullets you're using should be fine. Experience of others might differ but the SWC has been the least satisfactory shape for me in terms of pure accuracy. WC's are great at low velocity. For medium to high speeds in any given caliber the hard cast round nose and hard cast truncated cone have always been tops. I personally use Penn Bullets exclusively(the only downside is they are usually very slow on delivery...worth the wait in my opinion) but in todays market, if the caster is still in business his bullets are probably good. Do a search for cast bullets, you'll find some worthwhile advise. When you said resistance to seating felt different I first thought you might have mixed headstamps but with all the other care you've taken I doubt this. Also, don't know your physical circumstances but when I recently changed my eyeglass prescription I found my handloads shot better(just thought I'd throw that in!). Good luck, fliers are the curse of accuracy buffs!

I have found that shooting in Bullseye compatition that I get the best accuracy with Federal brass then Winchesters and Star second with Remington the worst in my guns. Shooting Remington 148 gr. swaged WC's over 2.8 - 3.0 of BE. With the Federal brass I get nice round groups, with the Winchester and Star I will get unexplainable fliers like you talk about. Also I have noticed the same thing as you with differaces in seating preasure required with Win and Star brass.

Just my oppinion but I would try a differant brand of brass just to see what happens. In my gun it's the differance of shooting in the 290's with Fed. and 250's with Win/Star brass in a gallary course.

If you have access to the NRA reloading manual and to Ken Waters articles in "pet loads" they both contain in-depth articles on wadcutter loads in the 38 special. I have found that bullet selection followed by powder type are the two most important considerations for accuracy in my model 14s. This is assuming good and consistant loading proceedures. My current load is 3.5 grains of 231/HP-38 with the Remington HBWC.