I understand that the NRA at one time contracted with the White Lab to test a double charged 38 special load. Double charges were not uncommon in the early days of bullseye shooting and early progressive reloading tools.
It was reported that the 5.4 grain load of Bullseye powder did not cause a major failure of the guns tested unless the bullet was deeply seated. Does anyone know where a copy of this report can be obtained giving the specifics of the guns and loads tested as well as results?

Contact the NRA (Dope Bag?)Technical Questions & Answers.

quote:

It was reported that the 5.4 grain load of Bullseye powder did not cause a major failure of the guns tested unless the bullet was deeply seated.

"I shudder to think about it", he types as the sweat beads begin forming.

With a 158 quickload says that only hits 24,000 psi. I doubt you would blow a reasonable gun unless it was deep also.

Take that load to 1.145 (case length), the pressure goes to 176,000 psi.

Serious bummer!

The article you are referring to was the outgrowth of work performed by the NRA and Hercules Powder Company. Remember, Bullseye was a Hercules product at the time. The article is entitled "More Facts on Chamber Pressures" and was published in the December, 1978, American Rifleman. It was this article that systematically examined the pressure generated as a function of increasing charges of Bullseye along with the effect of deep seating combined with normal and double charges.

The H.P. White destructive tests were performed in 1971 for the Treasury Department and were entitled "Handgun Safety Evaluation".

The recommendation to contact the NRA is the right place to start.

Thanks for the input. I have contacted NRA and will advise when I get a response.

The H.P. White Lab destructive tests done for the government related to the question of the so called, "Saturday Night Special".

There was a move afoot to ban the importation of such, and the tests were an attempt to find a common measurement for what was or was not.

If I recall correctly, the lab fired proof loads in the specimens until destruction. I do not know what conclusions were reached or specific test results for the imports.

I do recall the Colt D frame Detective Special lasted much longer than the S&W J frame Chiefs Special. Perhaps something to do with where the cylinder notches were cut.

quote:

I do recall the Colt D frame Detective Special lasted much longer than the S&W J frame Chiefs Special. Perhaps something to do with where the cylinder notches were cut.

I doubt that the cylinder notches were a problem for the S&W Chiefs Special. As a five-shot cylinder design, the notches are in between the chambers. They don't weaken the chambers at all as would happen on a 6-shot cylinder gun, even one like the Colt Detective Special where the notches are offset from the center of the chamber.

I cannot be certain becuase I did not keep the articles, but I believe that the proof load-based tests were not the same as the Handgun Safety Evaluation tests.

Bill Davis, who authored the Chamber Pressure article I mentioned, stated that only one gun of each type was used in the Handgun Safety tests and they were loaded until they failed catastrophically.

The sereis of tests that employed the proof loads actuially used two guns of each type. One was fired with 5000 factory rounds. If the gun did not achieve the 5000 round count without "breaking" it was considered a failure. The definition of "breakage" was very liberal, and as a result guns that were still fully servicable were classified as having failed. Then they took a second gun of each type and fired another 5000 rounds of factory ammo through it, but after every 100 they fired a proof load. Designs that made it through the first series falied much earlier in the second series.

Now, that was a long time ago and my Way-Back machine isn't what it was. I have been trying to find the details on that series of tests, but have not had any luck so far. So the details could very possibly be wrong.

I contacted NRA regarding the tests conducted by the H.P. White lab and was advised by Angus Laidlaw, dope bag contributing editor, that an article was published on 38 special load tests in the February, 1951 issue of The American Rifleman on page 22. He suggested a source for this article, but the suggested source was out of business when I contacted them. If anyone happens to have a copy of the article I would be very interested in its content.
Thanks, Riverrat

Feb 1951 AR is available for $10, if you feel like spending that much for the article.

I remember the article that covered "real world catastrophic failures" quite well. There was a sudden rash of blown up revolvers with the standard NRA bullseye load of 2.7-3.0 grs of Bullseye behind a wad cutter bullet. It happened all over the country. There was ALL KINDS of speculation as to the cause. It was so bad that Dan Wesson wrote a letter to ALL of the gun magazines of the day, telling them of the problems (but without any idea of the real cause). The whole industry was seriously worried, and rightfully so.

The NRA commissioned the H.P. White Lab to try to determine the cause (this had NOTHING to do with the Treasury Dept tests that were held later). After exhaustive tests, H.P. White were finally able to replicate the catastrophic failures. A double charge was NOT enough to damage a S&W 'K" frame (as an example). As I remember, the pressures were in the high thirties (30,000 psi). However, when they seated the wadcutter bullet 1/16" deeper WITH a double charge, the pressure went into the area of the high sixties (60,000 psi) and the revolver failed (one to three chambers and the top strap left the area).

Once they had the cause in hand, then it was pretty easy to determine why this sudden happening after many, many years of using those light target loads without problems. The sudden and widespread use of Progressive Presses without sufficient knowledge or mechanical understanding of how they worked. It can be pretty easy to drop a double charge in ANY progressive press IF YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Then, if you have failed to keep the bullet seating die clean, the build up of bullet shavings and lube can progressively seat the bullets deeper. When the combination of the double charge and deep seating occurs then you get a bonafide KA-BOOM!

I used to score targets for the this area's Regional Police matches. They were shot outdoors and we set up a scoring area on the indoor range. Even tho' we could clearly hear a double charge go off when it occurred (and it did with some frequency - two or three per match with two hundred competitors) no damaged revolvers happened on my watch. I still remember the sound (pop,pop,pop then BANG!). They apparently were simply double charges without the bullets being deep seated. Not a good thing but not catastrophic.

There is an addendum - when the cause became known (due to the good offices of the NRA) people started using better practices with their Progressive Presses and the frequency of damaged revolvers went WAY down.

We have seen the same reported problems from the same causes with the sudden popularity of Cowboy Action shooting. A bunch of enthusiastic new shooters (with NO clue about practical, safe reloading with progressive presses) and the same thing has reoccurred. It is somewhat amusing (tragic tho' it might be) how that is playing out (those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...).

Dale53

Thanks Dale for the insight on the double loads of bullseye. Your experience is essentially what I experienced with bullseye shooters in the 1950's. The star progressive loader was the tool of choice at the time and was(and is still)a fine piece of equiptment. However, a double powder charge could be accomplished by the careless or unknowing. These double charges usually did not cause big damage to the Colt or S&W targer guns and gave some folks the idea that k frames could be loaded to pressures beyond plus P levels. Anyone loading the 38 special to pressures approaching the 30,000 psi range should be aware that there is little room for error at this level. Folks loading the 38 beyond the 1000 fps level should maybe take heed.

Gents,

The Feb. '51 article IS NOT the one dealing with double charges of BE, just common data.
Don't waste your money on it.

Good shooting.

Thanks Homie. Hopefully someone can come up with the correct data and report.