I got a new mold the other day. It is a 6 cavity Lee that casts a 45ACP 228gr LRN bullet. I'm not real fond of Lee's two cavity molds. The will do in a pinch because they are so cheap. I have only one two cavity and it is a pain to cast with. The alignment pins leave a lot to be desired. I also have several 6 gang that have worked real well. Much better aligning system and sprue plate. @ $37 you couldn't go wrong.


I had some problems getting this round nose bullet to cast. Cleaned, smoked, followed the instructions to a tee and still had problems. Called Lee and they suggested I clean it with a brush as well as the brake clean I was using. Same problems. Then I changed technique on how I was filling the mold. I put the sprue plate right against the bottom pour spout on the furnace. I got good bullets then and I began to get excited. So I cast some, loaded them and went to the indoor range to shoot them at some paper. Pretty accurate, minimal leading. So I thought to myself, "You're on to something, bub!"


Some of the cavities don't cast perfectly round. When you size them it shows heavier marks on some of the sides on some of the bullets. I am casting them from wheel weights so they are bigger than pure lead. I am sizing them to .452". As much as they are getting sized I imagine they are upwards of .454" raw, I'll check later.

Anyway on to the loads. All of these had "I" (Independence) brand cases as well as Winchester primers. The powder was Accurate Arms AA#2 and 4.7gr. I was using this same weight load with the Raniers only with Bullseye powder and with good success. Accuracy was outstanding @ 10 and 20 yards. Also, there was almost no leading. Some in the first 1/2" of the M625JM. They need to be pushed a little harder to get rid of this, at least in my opinion.

Here is the data:

Taurus PT1911
Low 770fps
High 786fps
Avg 775fps
ES 15.96fps
SD 5.56fps
This load shot to point of aim and I had a one hole group at 10yrds from support. I was quite impressed. I also shot this out to 20yrds and had about a 1 1/2" group while using support.


I also found something out that was kind of interesting. I'll show you in the data.

M625JM in single action mode:
Low 765fps
High 791fps
Avg 776fps
ES 25.68fps
SD 9.64fps
I had a thread a while back asking the question about the difference between ballistic results from the same rounds fired from a revolver and a semi-auto. Here is one answer. They are pretty close in these two firearms! At least in the two firearms and the modes of operation reported so far.

M625JM in double action mode.
Low 749fps
High 764fps
Avg 756fps
ES 15.14fps
SD 6.4fps

Like I said, these rounds are exceptionally accurate. Notice the difference in velocity between the types of modes from the M625JM. I know most of you far more experience handloaders already knew this but I was surprised. I attribute the difference in velocity to the force of the hammer fall. The hammer travels much further in single action than it does in double. That force being increased causes the primer to ignite with more "gusto" and viola, more velocity!

I'll repeat this test with some of the other revolver/semi-auto duos I have available for testing.

All in all, I may have found a fine replacement for the plated bullets. That will be a big cost savings to me, I like that!


p.s. See, not everything I load is in the stratosphere!

Those are the bullets I run. I shoot them cast of range scrap, unsized and lubed with Rooster Jacket. They've shot very well for me over both Bullseye and WST in a 625 and 2 1911s (a Colt and a Kimber).

A larger version of my avatar:

Thanks IMA,
I speaking of range scrap, I got a 100lb bucket tonight for $25. Not sure how much lead I'll get from it. There were a lot of "fines" and jacket material in there. That should go to the recycling center when I get done. Copper and brass jackets. Should be worth something. The lead I got out of it so far is really good looking stuff. With all that other junk in there there is no need to flux! I've got shot gun wads and muzzle loader pads and all kinds of stuff in there!

Last bunch of this stuff I got was good for target round. I mixed some of it with tin and made some harder bullets too!

At any rate, it's been an adventure.

I've seen several posts on Cast Boolits where people say they've sold the jackets, but the yards around here won't touch them. Asking is free though, and if they'll give you money for them you might as well take it!

I've been really lucky with the scrap I've scored. There was one indoor range where I got 15 buckets for free and then I hit on a guy that sold me another 5 for 14 cent a pound. I think the waste to lead ratio runs a little worse than WW, but I'm finding it hard to be bitter. I estimate the stuff I get as 25% jacketed, 25% commercial cast and the rest .22's. It casts beautifully as is and hardens a bit when water dropped. Not as hard as WDWW to my scientific scratch tests, but significantly harder than ACWW.

For smelting, I use a Dutch oven on a turkey fryer. I turn my buckets out into a wheel barrow and then load the pot with a long handled garden shovel. This gives me one last chance to look over the scrap for dud .22's and I'm not standing on top of the pot if I should ever miss one. The shovel from the wheel barrow is also a lot easier than trying to dig those fines out of a 5 gallon bucket.

Great advice! I am using a 1lb coffee can to get stuff out of the bucket. I should have used the turkey fryer. Instead I am using the 4-20 Lee pot. Going to invest in a used dutch oven from a garage sale this weekend though! I live in a sub-division in town so it may raise some eyebrows. Oh well, they've had them raised before!

LOL! I'm in suburban Philly, so I have neighbors too. I try to be decent about things and smelt in cooler weather when the windows will be closed, etc.. Bottom line though, this is my property and there isn't any law or ordinance to prohibit what I'm doing.

Range scrap copper should go for soldiered copper prices, i.e. around $2.50/pound. It certainly isn't to be taken lightly in the economy of recycling and the price for copper. A rough calculation on 4 buckets of range scrap would place the copper value at about $300 (17 pounds of copper per 40 pounds of lead separated), which is nothing to sneeze at.

To bring top price that copper must be clean, with no lead residue remaining including any trapped inside the jacket from the skimming operation.

Also any that was fired into a backstop containing rubber pellets will likely retain some of the small scraps of rubber in the smelting operation. If it does the copper will have a burnt look.

Around here copper is called either clean or burnt. A vast difference in price when sold.

Lead fired into one of those cyclonic funnel backstops may be so powderized that you will realize very little lead at all from it. Powderized lead is like dross. It requires a blast furnace to melt. That is up around 4500 degrees. Not within the capability of anyone other than a foundry.

Range lead can be of almost any hardness. Typically fairly soft. Around 7 bhn. due to the large number of jacketed bullets fired at most ranges. Some use it as is but I would want to harden it some with a bit of type metal or at the very least it would benefit from the addition of a small amount of tin. Of course if you don't have a good source of scrap tin and most people don't you will pay well for solder. But the good news is that even a small amount of tin adds much to the quality of the finished product.

Bullets with no tin and even large amounts of antimony make hard bullets, but they will lead badly. lead and antimony melt to form an alloy but the antimony separates out as the bullet cools. This will mean pure lead in contact with the bore which means leading. Tin will keep everything well mixed as it cools and your alloy remains an alloy.

quote:

To bring top price that copper must be clean, with no lead residue remaining including any trapped inside the jacket from the skimming operation.

Jessie, that's why I said it's soldered copper price, which isn't top price. Here's the current prices for scrap, including soldered copper.
http://www.scrapindex.com/metal/copper/

Lots of fines too that aren't melting. I talked to the scrapper in my area. He said range lead goes for 22 cents a pound. I asked about what it would go for with copper jackets in it and he said he would have to look at it. I asked what the #1 copper is going for and he said $2.80lb. This is not that to be sure, so even if it was somewhere in between I could make a little money off of the left overs, now that is cool!

Think of it this way. My time is free so I get lead for the difference between the price I get for the scrap and the price I paid for it. Now that is cool!

I just bought another six cavity mould but mine is the 230 gr. FP. When I cast this out of my two cavity mould the bullet ended up weighing 245 grs.! That's when I used range scrap. My two cavity mould is about worn out and casts imperfect bases which cause a lot of leading. I broke the sprue cutter on my last six cavity mould (255 gr. RNFP) when the bullets cooled too quickly on the initial pour and I had to pound it open. I'll not let that happen again.

Why do you think it works better when you hold the sprue plate against the spout? I'll have to try that.

I'm in the process of melting about 800 lbs. of lead into ingots. I just got a Carolina Cooker and that thing works perfectly.

Dave Sinko

quote:

Why do you think it works better when you hold the sprue plate against the spout?

Hey Dave,

The term to describe that kind of casting is called "pressure casting" by some folks. I guess that is because the weight of the material in the pot is "pushing" the lead into the mold, seems logical to me.

With the aluminum blocks and trying to get bullets as fast as you can sometimes I keep my mold too cold too. What happens with the round nose bullets is that the stream kind of swirls in the mold and some cools and some doesn't. When you pressure cast it forces the air out of the cavity. Either through the venting provided or back up through the spout hole. Probably the first thought.

At any rate, even though they don't look the best, they shoot pretty good. Velocity is right what Accurate Arms says it should be with the data I checked. Accurate too. I shot tonight in competition and did as well as I usually do. Out of my M625JM and my PT1911 I got consistent groups, I like that. My ammo only cost me about $1.50/50. Pretty reasonable for 230gr 45ACP rounds. Beats WWB all to pieces!

Interesting... I don't have any issue with the fines melting at all. The ranges I got the scrap from are simple angled plates that empty into a trough. There are plenty of flattened disks, but at least 30% of the weight is in fines...

What are "fines" and why would they not melt? I have never heard that word associated with bullet casting.

Dave Sinko

I assumed, and may be wrong in that assumption, that the fines being referred to were the powdered lead that comes from the bullet impacts on the armor plate. My buckets of range scrap have a lot of it. It packs the larger lead bits together like soil in gravel.