.45 ACP ball has the unique distinction of being either (1) almost as effective, or (2) as effective, compared to a good hollowpoint.

No other pistol caliber comes to mind that can make that claim. So when debating what to load your magazines with for a .45 ACP, the "better" choice isn't as lopsided in one direction.

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I failed to mention that my round would be .45 ACP hard ball.

"Pay attention", Uncle Norman. A 230gr .45 Golden Sabre or Gold Dot will break that arm and keep going.

"It ain't your Daddy's hollow point"

quote:

Originally posted by OKFC05:

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I failed to mention that my round would be .45 ACP hard ball.

"Pay attention", Uncle Norman. A 230gr .45 Golden Sabre or Gold Dot will break that arm and keep going.

"It ain't your Daddy's hollow point"

I thought a good hollow point was supposed to expand dramatically they penetrat 10-13" and stop. How is a fully expanded round going to continue through the arm bone then more than likely have to break through a rib and go far enough in to shred the lungs or heart. If it can do all that it will go completely through someone with a front shot.

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I thought a good hollow point was supposed to expand dramatically they penetrat 10-13" and stop. How is a fully expanded round going to continue through the arm bone then more than likely have to break through a rib and go far enough in to shred the lungs or heart. If it can do all that it will go completely through someone with a front shot.

Not necessarily, on any of the above. Terminal ballistic performance is highly variable, simply because what the bullet strikes in a human body is so heterogeneous. Bonded hollowpoints like the Speer 230gr. Gold Dot will get slowed down more than will hardball upon striking an ulna, radius, or humerus, but likely will not be stopped or fail to adequately penetrate the thoracic cavity thereafter. Ball is more likely to glance off the rounded surface of an arm bone, changing its direction of travel, maybe making it tumble and penetrate LESS than would a partly expanded, bonded hollowpoint, maybe taking it completely off track for wounding vitals. Besides, we should recall that a shattered arm is somewhat incapacitating, in and of itself, and will likely be out of the way for the followup shot(s) applied as needed.

quote:

Originally posted by 38-44HD45:

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I thought a good hollow point was supposed to expand dramatically they penetrat 10-13" and stop. How is a fully expanded round going to continue through the arm bone then more than likely have to break through a rib and go far enough in to shred the lungs or heart. If it can do all that it will go completely through someone with a front shot.

Not necessarily, on any of the above. Terminal ballistic performance is highly variable, simply because what the bullet strikes in a human body is so heterogeneous. Bonded hollowpoints like the Speer 230gr. Gold Dot will get slowed down more than will hardball upon striking an ulna, radius, or humerus, but likely will not be stopped or fail to adequately penetrate the thoracic cavity thereafter. Ball is more likely to glance off the rounded surface of an arm bone, changing its direction of travel, maybe making it tumble and penetrate LESS than would a partly expanded, bonded hollowpoint, maybe taking it completely off track for wounding vitals. Besides, we should recall that a shattered arm is somewhat incapacitating, in and of itself, and will likely be out of the way for the followup shot(s) applied as needed.

Good point, 38, about the busted arm slowing someone down. I have tremendous respect for people who have arms bigger than my legs, a bigger gun or a whole lot more posts than me.

Well said, Norman, and thanks!

If you're worried about penetration issues with your JHPs, you might want to select a round that delivers penetration to the old IWBA standard of 18". This was partially meant to take into account the prospect of having to shoot someone who was in a classis two handed firing stance and had their arms out in front of them.

My personal USP is loaded with 230 FMJs. This is simply a cost saving measure. I believer that one needs to fire at least 50 rounds (or 4 complete loads, whichever is greater) of a given carry load through each magazine one has for a weapon, and at least 200-250 total. I have 13 magazines for the my USP and 20 for my Kimber Raptor. Cost wise, it's simply prohibitively expensive to change over to using a premium JHP (at even 50 cents a round, I'd be looking at $825 out of pocket to make sure that a single type of ammunition worked). I'd rather have a good round that I know works in either gun and which I can stockpile en masse. Your needs may well vary.

I opted for FMJ as I know it works and it pokes a big hole that runs deep.

Why don't you just keep it simple and load them with all the same load - my personal choice for all my "self defense" ammo is Federal HydraShok ammo - and then if the "bad guy" is turned sideways to you when you 'need' to take a shot at him; well, the just call for a "Time Out" and wait for him to get turned around to face you???

Hell guys let's just keep it simple,whatever shoots straight out of your autoloader or revolver and is reliable just stick with it whether it be hollowpoints,fmjs,hardcast or swaged lead,I've got 1000s of majic bullets for everything I own and then 1000s upon 1000s of target ammo,ain't a damn one of going to do me any good if I can't hit what I'm shooting at or that one day god forbid I'm caught without it.
Equalizer

Uncle Norman. I would select a deep penetrating HP and forget about it. A load utilizing the Hornady XTP might give you peace of mind. An upper arm shot will probably end a fight, or give you a second or two to "fine up" your aim and deliver the fight stopping blow if the first shot doesn't stop the fight. If you go to www.stoppingpower.net you can do a search in the test bed forum and look at gello shooting results for a variety of different loads in different calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
Uncle Norman. I would select a deep penetrating HP and forget about it. A load utilizing the Hornady XTP might give you peace of mind. An upper arm shot will probably end a fight, or give you a second or two to "fine up" your aim and deliver the fight stopping blow if the first shot doesn't stop the fight. If you go to www.stoppingpower.net you can do a search in the test bed forum and look at gello shooting results for a variety of different loads in different calibers.

I tried some Winchester Supreme 230gr XSTs in my Kimber last weekend and was very impressed with the accuracy. A 230 gr .45 slug will probably be sufficient whether it fails to expand fully or mushrooms beautifully. In that caliber you probably can't go wrong whatever you load.

If those Winchesters are 100% reliable and accurate to boot, I would look no further.

SW1911 & Wilson COmbat ETM Mags.
RIght now 2 mags of
Hornady +P 200 gr. XTP JHPs @ 1,055 fps
and 1 mag of 230 gr. Speer Gold DOt JHPs

Same thing in full moons for the 625

CZ 75B 9x19 two mags of 10 each of some
124 gr. Gold DOt JHPs - I need more 9mm luger SD/HD ammunition.

Off to the range tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
If those Winchesters are 100% reliable and accurate to boot, I would look no further.

Mine is the Ultra Carry II in stainless. I've never had any failure of any kind with any type ammo. I can't say enough good about that little fella.

My duty gun is an M&P 9mm. I use 124 gr.GD+P loads. In a situation where my life is in immediate jeapordy I follow the GOLDEN RULE. Two in the chest one in the head.