quote:

Originally posted by Pisgah:
However, +P ammo today is barely equal to standard pressure .38 ammo of the '40s and '50s, so you really have little to be concerned about there.

I'd be careful about statements like that. If your comments are based on published velocities from old sources, BEWARE. In them thar days chronographs were few and far between* and load testing was done from non-vented test barrels. As a result, published velocites were "a little optimistic".

The development of affordable, accurate chronographs and the use of vented test barrels to duplicate gas loss from barrel cylinder gaps has resulted in much more reality in published velocities.

*Some velocities were calculated from ballistic pendulum results. This can be very accurate if your calibration load is of known consistency.

It could be that the agency is worried about the possibility of someone having an ultralight revolver experience bullet pull and bind up when using lead bullets as opposed to jacketed. There's going to be a slight risk of this in light revolvers and it might be one of those things where "it happened once, so lets not have it happen again".

What model revolvers do you have now and how old are they? An email to SW will yield an answer as to whether they consider them fit for at least limited +P use.

I have two older Airweights, a 12-3 and a first year 442. Neither is officially +P rated and both came to me with an unknown service history. I'm sure that +P use will accellerate wear on them, but it isn't likely to result in catastrophic failure. I personally choose to use +P ammunition in them anyway. If they break, well I'm willing to accept that.

FWIW,
(And I'm NOT recommending this to ANYONE!)
The Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 +P LSWCH/P G/C I've shot (to date) have NOT jumped crimp out of my 12 ounce 342 PD. (All others from the big 3 have) May be a fluke, but I suspect it has more to do with the robust crimp being applied to their stuff? It also could help to explain a small part of why/how they're wringing 1000 FPS out of a 2 inch tube? That Champagne cork's in there, pretty good!

quote:

I'd be careful about statements like that. If your comments are based on published velocities from old sources, BEWARE. In them thar days chronographs were few and far between* and load testing was done from non-vented test barrels. As a result, published velocites were "a little optimistic".

+1

quote:

The development of affordable, accurate chronographs and the use of vented test barrels to duplicate gas loss from barrel cylinder gaps has resulted in much more reality in published velocities.

Not to drift this thread but I haven't found that statement to be true in handloads.

Take for instance the IMR loading for SR4756 and 158gr LSWC in 357 magnum. Their data page lists:

• 158 GR. MEI CAST LSWC IMR SR 4756 .357" 1.620" 5.0 968 13,800 PSI 6.5 1214 27,600 PSI

Now I know there are a lot of mitigating circumstances to each firearm and yada yada yada. I loaded the maximum load for my wife's 586 6" and barely got 980fps! Now I know we have better test equipment but it would seem their data was generous to a fault! I took it up to Speer #8 levels and got the desired velocity, which by the way was in the mid 1200fps range.

I'm not trying to argue, just stating what my experiences have been in this area.

Like I said this is a major thread drift but it is in response to a poster's comments.

eric, I was born in San Diego. I lived in the PRK for quite a few years too. I have decided to never live in a state that won't allow their citizens the right to carry a concealed firearm. Maybe you should look for another place to practice your profession. A place where they don't "handcuff" the innocent!

By the way, thanks for your service!

WR Moore,

There is a table in Speer #9 with velocities of then current factory loads. Loads were chronographed from test barrels and from real guns; both numbers are published.

I think you will find that velocities were generally higher than current loads of the same brand (there was no BB at the time).

Without seeing any evidence I find it hard to believe that in 1970's a major manufacturer was unable to purchase reliable chronograph. After all it's not a stone age; we were on the Moon 5 years earlier...

FWIW

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Spotteddog:
FWIW,
(And I'm NOT recommending this to ANYONE!)
The Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 +P LSWCH/P G/C I've shot (to date) have NOT jumped crimp out of my 12 ounce 342 PD. (All others from the big 3 have) May be a fluke, but I suspect it has more to do with the robust crimp being applied to their stuff? It also could help to explain a small part of why/how they're wringing 1000 FPS out of a 2 inch tube? That Champagne cork's in there, pretty good!

You've got a good point, Spot. I heavy crimp all my handloads. I've found that my handloads burn the powder better and are more consistent with a heavy crimp.

quote:

Without seeing any evidence I find it hard to believe that in 1970's a major manufacturer was unable to purchase reliable chronograph.

I don't think the issue is about them not having an accurate chronograph, but rather the fact that they were using long unvented test barrels, which produced higher results than the shorter vented test barrels of today.

Point well taken, Stiab. Note however that Speer #9 table has BOTH test barrel and revolver velocities.

BTW, I think we had this conversation before in Osprey's 1000 +P thread

Mike

So... back to the last question 125 or 158 grain XTP's or the dollar a shot Buffalo Bores?

Well,
Since they won't let you run SWCHP's, the B/B's and everyone else's FBI loads are out. At that point your decision is whether your a light and fast, or a heavy slow devotee. Thats a decision that has to come from your gut? As to the buck a round issue, I make that $5 to fill it and $5 for a back up load. Same cost as 2 3/4 gallons of gas in these parts. Pricey, yes! But I'm worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by erickg:
So... back to the last question 125 or 158 grain XTP's or the dollar a shot Buffalo Bores?

If the FBI load isn't an option, then I would use Speer SB Gold Dots. Since you're a cop Gold Dots should be particularly attractive because the plated on bullet jacket resists core/jacket seperation when going through auto glass. Traditional jacketed bullets tend not to do so well when glass is involved.

Fire a couple cylinders full to insure reliability. Fire your carry ammo every six months. If you figure five in the gun and one five round reload, that's thirty rounds/thirty bucks the first year and twenty bucks every year after that. Use American Eagle 130 gr. standard pressure for practice. The POI should be very close.

If you are really cheap like I am, you could shoot the five rounds in the gun every six months, then put your reload ammo in the gun and burn that up six months later. Burning up my carry SB Gold Dots costs me a whopping ten dollars a year. Ten rounds of +P a year will have little, if any, effect on your gun.

There is a Remington lead HP that's not SWC shaped - Here's the numbers for it from the Remington web page:
38 Special (+P) R38S12 158 LEAD HP

This has a different product number than the lead SWC HP and if memory serves has a more rounded profile. Natchez sells it for 2 dollars more than the LSWC variation. It's still a +P load though.

If you're willing to shoot +P then either it (which technically abides by the manual), the GD short barrel, or something like the Double Tap 125 are probably great.

Otherwise either the Hornady 158 XTP or the Fiochi 148gr SJHP should work. I don't know that either will expand reliably at snub nose velocities and the Fiochi is at least significantly cheaper.

Gator,

Remington R38S12 are LSWC-HP and they are +P. Neither works for Erick...

Mike

quote:

Checked out the Buffalo Bore non +p ammo, the 125 Speer GD load sounds like the ticket, but at a little over a dollar a pop, it leaves me still searching.

You get into so many gunfights that is a problem? A few for familiarization and practice with something cheaper.
I do not want any jacketed bullet in a non-magnum revolver, but at least Buffalo Bore shoots theirs in real guns so you can see what is going on.