howdy and happy new year, i was just reading a old article on USAF .38 snubnose revolvers and it states that the USAF issued Remington .38 special 125 gr hollow points in Vietnam , is this correct ??
If so does the ammo have a code , such as the M41 38 special ammo did ??
many thanks robbt

What is the source of the article? Who is the author?

I believe the air force used 130 grain fmj in their revolvers. it probably had something to do with the Hague Convention rules not allowing hollow points.

I had a .38 Mod 15 and we carried JHP for personal defence and guard duty. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed enemy soldiers, not to gooks wearing black pajamas. Neither does it apply to the ragheads in bedsheets shooting at our guys in Afganistan and Iraq, in spite of the liberal babbling in the US press.
If anyone bothers to read the Geneva Convention, they find when civilians fire on our soldiers, we are entitled to shoot them on the spot, or try them with a military tribunal and execute them.

We had 130gr FMJ .38 ammunition for "combat" use, but the only place I ever used it was on the firing range.
P.S. I'm retired USAF.

howdy , happy new year, the magazine is Handgun testfire and the article on page 12 was written by Chuck Taylor, hope this helps , very interested on this subject , keep me in the loop, robbt

quote:

Originally posted by OKFC05:
The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed enemy soldiers, not to gooks wearing black pajamas. Neither does it apply to the ragheads in bedsheets shooting at our guys in Afganistan and Iraq, in spite of the liberal babbling in the US press.
If anyone bothers to read the Geneva Convention, they find when civilians fire on our soldiers, we are entitled to shoot them on the spot, or try them with a military tribunal and execute them.

Amen +1 .......and I wish we would. Guantanamo would be a good place to start.

Howdy OKFC05 , Happy New Year, can you tell us when your usage of hollow points was and what brand if you remember??
many thanks robbt

the Geneva convention has all to do about treatment on prisoners of war and not what you can kill bad guys with. that is where the Hague convention stuff comes in. no doubt there are some gray areas

During Vietnam, as a naval aviator I carried the issue S&W Victory Model .38sp revolver on one cruise. The ammunition was FMJ tracer. I was dissatisfied with this weapon, and carried a personal Browning Hi Power on my next two flying cruises there. I still have that beaut, now thoroughly gussied up with Crimson Trace Grips and a Cylinder and Slide SFS kit.

Incidentally, the United States did not sign the Geneva Convention. We just honor it. Wierd.
Cordially, Jack

quote:

Originally posted by steveno:
the Geneva convention has all to do about treatment on prisoners of war and not what you can kill bad guys with. that is where the Hague convention stuff comes in. no doubt there are some gray areas

There is no protection in the Hague conventions for people in civilian attire who attack our troops regarding how, when, or with what they are killed. Civilians are protected only if they remain non-combatants.
However you want to number or name the International Rules of War, they only apply to uniformed combatants, not to civilians who commit murder.
And by the way, there is no prohibition against hollow points at all, per se. The original intent was to prohibit fragmentation bullets like wood and glass, and generally prohibits combat bullets that fragment or expand easily. After seeing grenade wounds, it struck me as particularly silly that bullets were not supposed to fragment, but grenades are OK!?!

As to the brand/designation of the .38 hollowpoints 35 years ago...I don't remember.

I would have to check to see if they still carry them, but when I retired, the gate guards were carrying hollowpoint, expanding bullets in their M9 handguns, because they expect to encounter criminals, not enemy soldiers.
What brand? They came in a brown box........
probably MK243.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/pistol/pistol_ammo.html

I know SAC aircrews were issued hollowpoint ammo for their Model 15s as late as 1986. I was a Security Police officer at the time, and we had to carry that crappy 130 grain ball ammo with the bullet seated way deep in the case. It really used to piss us off when the aircrews jumped the line at the armory window (their privilege) and it really torked us to see them getting hollowpoints. I have no idea what brand they were, though.

quote:

Originally posted by sigp220.45:
I know SAC aircrews were issued hollowpoint ammo for their Model 15s as late as 1986. I was a Security Police officer at the time, and we had to carry that crappy 130 grain ball ammo with the bullet seated way deep in the case. It really used to piss us off when the aircrews jumped the line at the armory window (their privilege) and it really torked us to see them getting hollowpoints. I have no idea what brand they were, though.

I too was in Security Police (during the seventies) and for three years of that worked in the armory. The explanation as to why the aircrews were able to carry hollowpoints was that their weapons were classified as survival weapons, not combat weapons. Pissed me off too!

I retired in 70, and spent 19.5 years as a SAC combat crew member. Never saw an HP of any sort.

Very few HPs even around at that time. My 1970 Lyman manual lists only Speer's half jacket HP. Speer did not load ammo at that time.

Received my Indiana permit in 1970, and could find no HP ammo--at best very new at that time. Super Vel was on the market, but a little hard to find even in Indiana. Their primary 38 load was 110gr, and I did not see any in the military.

All in all, to the best of my knowledge, no HPs were issued to bomber or tanker crews, from 1951 to May 1970 when I went on terminal leave.

Forgot one thing--aircrews did not carry S&W 15s. We qualified with the 2" 15s, but carried J frame what today are 37s in the 60s. In the 50s, 1911s, and later the aircrew version of the 2" 12.

I never saw any USAF JHP ammo in .38 Special, anywhere, during my tour in the USAF as a munitions officer from 1969-1992, and that includes Vietnam, Thailand, Europe, and several SAC bases. I did procurement for the USAF at one point and no hollowpoints were purchased or in the inventory at Hill AFB which is the Ammunition Control Point for the USAF. If anyone carried .38 Special JHPs while on duty in the USAF they were bootleg. Standard issue was the 130 grain FMJ.

I should add that HQ 7AF at Tan Son Nhut had a specific written policy forbidding use of hollowpoints by any USAF personnel. Did we gripe? Yes. The 130 was a lousy round, but that was the policy.