From what I've read, both NYPD and LAPD (probably others too) have approved Speer Gold Dot 135gr as their duty rounds. But given the results of testing like Brassfetcher's
penetration seems to be marginal when compared to other available rounds out there.

So, what gives?

rd

You are right. Those results are a little on the shallow side. For a different perspective, measure off ten inches on a tape measure and hold that up to any part of your body. It doesn't seem quite so shallow at that point. I believe that when the SB .357 was tested on www.stoppingpower.net it penetrated better. I'll also guess that it goes a little deeper when fired through four layers of denim. If it opens consistently and uniformely at .38 velocities that's another feather in it's cap. The plated on jacket is another.

You know, I'm home from work tomorrow. Why don't I shoot a SB .38 into Perma-Gel? What does everyone find more interesting, bare gel, or four layers of denim? Or is the .357 of greater interest?

The +P 135 grain .38 Special Gold Dot fired from a two inch snub penetrates and expands same as the +P 124 grain 9mm Gold Dot Short Barrel shot from a 3.25 inch barrel.

That 9mm round duplicates the old standby BP load from a four inch barrel at 1150 fps.

You're in good company with either of the above rounds at close range.

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
You know, I'm home from work tomorrow. Why don't I shoot a SB .38 into Perma-Gel? What does everyone find more interesting, bare gel, or four layers of denim? Or is the .357 of greater interest?

Your .38 SB test would be interesting for sure.

BTW - I do like the Gold Dot's, but I'm just not so sure that "new and improved" is actually better, given the consistent test results for Remington's good old "FBI Load"

Right now I carry BB's standard pressure LHC's in my snubby, but when my current supply runs out I'll most likely return to Remington's "FBI Load". I do carry Gold Dot's for reloads since the jacketed rounds slip in smoother.

rd

Seeing as you're in Texas, RD, I'm guessing that t shirts are the norm at least nine months a year. I'll shoot bare gel. If I have more than one round in my ammo library (I think I do, but I don't remember and I don't have much), I'll shoot four layers as well.

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
Seeing as you're in Texas, RD, I'm guessing that t shirts are the norm at least nine months a year. I'll shoot bare gel. If I have more than one round in my ammo library (I think I do, but I don't remember and I don't have much), I'll shoot four layers as well.

Sounds good. I switch to my SP101 in .357 mag when the coats come out of hiding.

rd

Some of the ultralight SW revolvers are specifically not suggested for use with non jacketed ammunition. There's also a risk of bullet pull with the FBI loads even in Airweights (though a limited risk). That is part of the reason that the GDs are often a choice for some PDs. Another thing to keep in mind is that some agencies only look for a 9 inch penetration min.

The test gun will be a 1 7/8" 360 PD.

Gator - You know, I hadn't thought about it before, but agencies do have to cover the full range of snubbies - say from relatively heavy all steel down to an Airlite. Makes sense.

rd

Go to www.tacticalforums.com
You have to register to view now, don't know why but the change was recent.
Go to the terminal effects section and do a search on the GD and a poster named DocGKR. Then you'll know why its preferred. The GD short barrel load, and I think the DPX load, are the only rounds out of a snubbie that perform the same as duty rounds (9, 40, 45 etc.) fired by most duty size autos in ballistic testing. He also suggests the full wadcutter because of its cookie cutter path it cuts in tissue and low recoil.

"$10 and $5,
see the bailiff,
next case".

O.K., I've just returned from my top secret ballistics testing laboratory. The results were interesting and, at times, surprising. All shots were fired from a range of approximately two feet from a 1 7/8" 360 PD. While none of the bullets left wound channels as straight as an arrow, all were relatively straight trackers. I did not weigh the recovered bullets, there was no fragmentation.

Round #1, Speer .38+P SB 135 gr. Gold Dot/bare Perma-Gel; 14" pen. .572 rec. dia. (I did not average this bullet, it was quite uniform).

Round #2, Speer .38+P SB 135 gr. Gold Dot/four layers denim; 17 1/2" pen. no expansion, recovered base forward.

Round #3, Corbon .38+P 110 gr. DPX/four layers denim; 12.75" pen. .620 avg. rec. dia.

Round #4, Speer .357 mag. SB 135 gr. Gold Dot/four layers denim; 14 1/2" pen. .587 rec. dia. (didn't avg., bullet was quite uniform).

Conclusions? Well if someone tells you one premium round of ammo is the same as the next, both .38+P rounds fired through four layers of denim would have expanded. That wasn't the case. If a shootee were only wearing a t-shirt, or a longer barreled gun is being used, I think either round is a good choice. If heavy winter clothing is involved, the Speer SB +P is a likely overpenetrator/nonexpander (that's not all bad and I know some of you guys like that kind of thing). The thing that makes me preferential to the Speer round in t-shirt weather is that I would expect a pointy bullet like the DPX to be more likely to glance off a skull like the first two of three head shots did in Jim Cirillo's first shoot. The Speer bullet is much more cylindrical and, I'm guessing, less likely to deflect. I do however believe that the DPX is a more reliable expander. That's where "six of one, half dozen of the other" comes into play. Each round has it's advantages. Of the three cartridges tested I prefer, and carry, the SB .357. It's boost in velocity over the .38+P SB round pushed it past it's expansion threshold when fired through four layers of denim, and it out penetrated the DPX +P/four layer and SB+P/bare gel rounds. The block of Perma-Gel reacted much more violently to the impact of the SB .357 than the other rounds also. While a comparison of a midrange .357 to .38+P rounds may seem like an apples to oranges comparison (it is), which is exactly the point I'm trying to make based on my test results, carry the .357 if you can handle it. It's a more reliable expander, has more energy, penetrates better and thus should be a more effective cartridge.

Thank you oh Shanked one! Interesting results.

And Spot...bad doggy!

Sonny- Thanks for the link.

rd

R/D,
Are you ambulatory enough now, to do a test on B/B's .38 Special 150 grain full wad cutter non-plus P loading?
You'll need LOTS of water jugs, methinks?
On me...