Since .357 ammo is loaded with slow burning powders . . . any thoughts on how much of this powder energy is wasted in short barreled revolvers? We all know how much muzzle flash we get in a 2 or 3 inch .357.

Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by teamcorbon:
Since .357 ammo is loaded with slow burning powders . . . any thoughts on how much of this powder energy is wasted in short barreled revolvers? We all know how much muzzle flash we get in a 2 or 3 inch .357.

Any thoughts?

N320AW

Not necessarily true. Maybe you can blanket state that for hunting loads in 357 Magnum caliber, but not for defensive loads.

I can tell you how to calculate it for each load you wish to test.
You need:
1. Chronograph
2. calculator
3. long barreled test gun
4. short barreled test gun
5. test ammo

Since energy = 1/2 mass times (velocity squared),

you can measure the velocity and calculate the energy in the bullet for each load, in each gun. Then calculate the percent loss for the short barrel, and that the the answer you seek.

For the defense loads specifically designed for carry guns, the % loss will be less, in my experience. My greatest difference between a 3" bbl and an 8" bbl was with a hot handload of WIN 296 under a 158gr Rem SP.

Speer has a new load out in .38 SPecial +P for low muzzle flash it's 135 gr. Gold DOt JHP
on thier web site there's a box in the upeer RH corner to click on - it shows their tests for
muzzle velocity it goes something like::

1 7/* Bbl. 875 FPS
2 1/8" Bbl. 910 FPS
3" Bbl. 980 FPS

I have yet to find this stocked & I go to gun stores that are within a mile of the CCI/Speer
plant in Lewiston, Idaho near the range I frequent. I have found

CCI/Speer .38 SPecial +P 125 gr. Gold DOts @ 1,000+ - approximated since I have a 3" Model 60 I also found a source for .38 Special which isn't rated +P but it's
125 gr. Hornady XTP JHP rated at 1,000 FPS

Both of these loads out of my MOdel 60 seem "warm" and muzzle flash/recoil is mangeable for repeat shots.


125 gr.

quote:

Originally posted by BlindJustice:
Speer has a new load out in .38 SPecial +P for low muzzle flash it's 135 gr. Gold DOt JHP

I have yet to find this stocked & I go to gun stores that are..

Speer's Short Barrel ammo's bullets are engineered to fully expand at lower velocities because of short barrels. I found some online for .38 special, and got the last box of .357 at my favorite gun store.

Warning, it is EXPENSIVE. Over $1.05 per round. Definately not something to go plinking with.

It is hard to find because they are not presently in production. I e-mailed their service techs, and learned they will resume production soon, and a good place to watch for it is Midway. http://www.midwayusa.com/

I've read a lot of posts on this and other forums about the short barrel stuff and it sounds like a bunch of parrotts repeating the same line. I'd like to know if there have been any documented shootings with them. I carry a Ruger SP101 with the 357 mag SB so I'm hedging my bets on a good story line.

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I've read a lot of posts on this and other forums about the short barrel stuff and it sounds like a bunch of parrotts repeating the same line. I'd like to know if there have been any documented shootings with them. I carry a Ruger SP101 with the 357 mag SB so I'm hedging my bets on a good story line.

Its called marketing.

I wasn't questioning about bullet expansion. And, I did not know about this " defensive " ammo.

I was speaking of standard loaded .357's. The way I see it a lot of powder is burning outside of the barrel. Correct?

quote:

Originally posted by N320AW:
I wasn't questioning about bullet expansion. And, I did not know about this " defensive " ammo.

I was speaking of standard loaded .357's. The way I see it a lot of powder is burning outside of the barrel. Correct?

OK, let's skip over the commercial loads. Some are loaded with slow powder and some are loaded with faster powder.

I did testing to find a .357 handload I liked for a Model 65 3" bbl. When I used the WIN 296 (a very slow pistol powder) powder, there was a lot of loss of velocity going from my hunting 686 8" to the model 65 3". Also, the impression I got was as you said, it seemed half the powder was burning in the air.
However, when I used HP 38 powder(a faster burning powder), the velocity loss was much less for the short barrel and the recoil blast and flash were MUCH reduced from the 296 load.
Although the velocity in the 3" barrel was a little higher with the 296 powder than with the HP38, I decided it was worth a little velocity loss to enhance shootability.

So I agree with you if we're talking slow powder, but I disagree with you if it is faster powder. HP38 burns quite efficiently in a 3" barrel. YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I've read a lot of posts on this and other forums about the short barrel stuff and it sounds like a bunch of parrotts repeating the same line. I'd like to know if there have been any documented shootings with them. I carry a Ruger SP101 with the 357 mag SB so I'm hedging my bets on a good story line.

I can't point you at any specific street shooting results, but NYPD (they're the agency that asked Speer to develop the SB .38+P in the first place) has been shooting people with Gold Dots from their autos and revolvers for some time, and if the results were bad, we would see an ammo switch or at least hear about bad performance through internet buzz. If we didn't hear from NYPD, we would from somewhere. I haven't heard anything. What I have seen myself is that I don't have bullet pull issues in my 360 PD with SB .357s, the power level is just right for me, and they shoot with decent accuracy. I've also noticed that they make my gun get hot fast. I'm not sure what that means, but I'm guessing the pressure is high and the powder is burning while it's in the gun. There are gelatin test results in the test bed forum on www.stoppingpower.net . Just do a search. They look impressive to me.

Okay, N320AW, here you go.

Remington 125 SJHP R357M1
4" GP100 1451 fps 609 ft*lb
3" M686 1345 fps 502 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1238 fps 425 ft*lb

Handload 125 Montana Gold JHP, 21.5 gr. H110
4" GP100 1425 fps 559 ft*lb
3" M686 1344 fps 502 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1223 fps 415 ft*lb

Remington 158 SJHP R357M2
4" GP100 1263 fps 559 ft*lb
3" M686 1199 fps 505 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1109 fps 431 ft*lb

Handload 158 Montana Gold JHP, 8.5 gr. SR4756, 38 spl brass
4" GP100 1242 fps 541 ft*lb
3" M686 1172 fps 482 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1143 fps 458 ft*lb

Bottom line - it depends.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by N320AW:
Since .357 ammo is loaded with slow burning powders . . . any thoughts on how much of this powder energy is wasted in short barreled revolvers? We all know how much muzzle flash we get in a 2 or 3 inch .357.

Any thoughts?

To answer your original question, my opinion is that the .357 looses a lot of it's power in short barrels, but is still much more powerful than .38+P. In addition to what Rozenbem provided, keep in mind that R357M1 has been clocked by Nitesite, a member of this forum, at over 1600 fps./700+ ft. lbs from a 6" barrel. I've read of similar results elsewhere. There's a reason I carry a 6" 686. Compare those numbers to the 2 1/8" barrel stats that Rozenbem so kindly provided.

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:

quote:

Originally posted by uncle norman:
I've read a lot of posts on this and other forums about the short barrel stuff and it sounds like a bunch of parrotts repeating the same line. I'd like to know if there have been any documented shootings with them. I carry a Ruger SP101 with the 357 mag SB so I'm hedging my bets on a good story line.

I can't point you at any specific street shooting results, but NYPD (they're the agency that asked Speer to develop the SB .38+P in the first place) has been shooting people with Gold Dots from their autos and revolvers for some time, and if the results were bad, we would see an ammo switch or at least hear about bad performance through internet buzz. If we didn't hear from NYPD, we would from somewhere. I haven't heard anything. What I have seen myself is that I don't have bullet pull issues in my 360 PD with SB .357s, the power level is just right for me, and they shoot with decent accuracy. I've also noticed that they make my gun get hot fast. I'm not sure what that means, but I'm guessing the pressure is high and the powder is burning while it's in the gun. There are gelatin test results in the test bed forum on www.stoppingpower.net . Just do a search. They look impressive to me.

I've had good accurace from my 101 with the it. The recoil is a little less than with the Wally World 110 gr range stuff. There isn't much flash either. I haven't noticed it getting too hot, maybe because I only shot enough to get zeroed. However, the 110 gr stuff definately gets the piece hot after about 10 rounds. I burned the p*** out of my hand after 15 rounds one day!

quote:

Originally posted by rozenbem:
Okay, N320AW, here you go.

Remington 125 SJHP R357M1
4" GP100 1451 fps 609 ft*lb
3" M686 1345 fps 502 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1238 fps 425 ft*lb

Handload 125 Montana Gold JHP, 21.5 gr. H110
4" GP100 1425 fps 559 ft*lb
3" M686 1344 fps 502 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1223 fps 415 ft*lb

Remington 158 SJHP R357M2
4" GP100 1263 fps 559 ft*lb
3" M686 1199 fps 505 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1109 fps 431 ft*lb

Handload 158 Montana Gold JHP, 8.5 gr. SR4756, 38 spl brass
4" GP100 1242 fps 541 ft*lb
3" M686 1172 fps 482 ft*lb
2.125" M640 1143 fps 458 ft*lb

Bottom line - it depends.

Mike

Ah. That answers my question perfectly.

Thanks

The actual reason I asked the question is that I have a S&W Lew Horton 44 special with the 3.5 inch barrel. I had a suspicion that using 2400 or H110 would kind of be a waste!

N320,
With a 3 inch barrel length, your right on the edge of it being a "waste" with 2400.
I have zero personal experience with H110 in that, or any other barrel length.