Gonna go camping during the labor day holiday. I live in CA and going camping in the Tahoe Area. Dont want to run into any bears. My only handguns are a Sigma .40 cal and my wife's 9mm Taurus 24/7. I dont forsee getting a .44 or higher for this trip. My question....what is good ammo to load in my guns? I've heard of +P and double taps loads. What are those? Sorry for the newbee question.

You are vastly more likey to need your handguns for 2-legged varmints than 4...

No need to spend a fortune on ammo, all the major brand defense loads are good. I personally like the Speer Gold Dots or Remington Golden Sabre, but Federal, Winchester, etc make good ones too.

I'm with OKF, the two leggers are more numerous and worser.

Double Tap is a maker of ammunition, they are perhaps best known for their 10mm and 9x25mm offerings, but offer rounds in a number of chamberings, including some hard cast ones meant for use against dangerous animals.

+P ammunition is ammunition that is loaded to higher than standard pressure, generally in an attempt to increase velocities.

In answer to your underlying question, were I worried about animals, and had only those handguns, I would keep a magazine loaded with Fiochi TC FMJ ammunition for the .40, and some type of deep penetrating FMJ for the 9mm - S&B ball with the steel jacket should work if you can find some. I'd hedge towards penetration over any expansion when using those particular autos against a dangerous animal.

quote:

Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
Double Tap is a maker of ammunition, they are perhaps best known for their 10mm and 9x25mm offerings, but offer rounds in a number of chamberings, including some hard cast ones meant for use against dangerous animals.

+P ammunition is ammunition that is loaded to higher than standard pressure, generally in an attempt to increase velocities.

In answer to your underlying question, were I worried about animals, and had only those handguns, I would keep a magazine loaded with Fiochi TC FMJ ammunition for the .40, and some type of deep penetrating FMJ for the 9mm - S&B ball with the steel jacket should work if you can find some. I'd hedge towards penetration over any expansion when using those particular autos against a dangerous animal.

Thanks for the info guys. Ive been away from this site for a bit and its nice to know that you are all still around. Speaking of animals. Big Bear= shot placement? Where do I shoot if a bear does come at me/us? Head? neck? If it were standing on hind legs, do I aim in between the arms? I would figure anywhere in the snout or eyes? I know...I know..sounds funny, but I always wondered. Remember, handgun (.40 cal or 9mm)

http://www.biggamehunt.net/forums/download.php?id=2971&...2260a071f7bf90689e01 for a basic picture of bear anatomy. Bear hunters, who often use rifles, usually try for a broad side shot to get heart/lungs, but that's often using a rifle and when there is also a concern about damage to a trophy. Skull shots can be tricky - bullet glancing off, etc. But I honestly don't know how much of a bone breaker a 9mm or .40 FMJ, even a heavy one, will be on a bear.

http://books.google.com/books?id=iTX3BYBnOTcC&pg=PA192&...t&resnum=2&ct=result says to aim two inches above the center of the eyes (presuably with the bear's head down and charging given the context). Standing there would seem to be a risk of rounds glancing off, grazes, etc so you might want to try for the heart.

A lot depends on how big the bear is and how angry it is I suppose.

I have bought DoubleTap .357 Magnum Hard Cast ammo as well as their .38 Special +P ammo, both are very good rounds. They are as good as Speer ammo since they are loaded to the same velocities or higher and use Speer Gold Dot bullets. The price is right too since Speer Ammo will cost you $23/20 rounds and DoubleTap will cost you $27/50 rounds.

As for using a 40 S&W or 9mm against Bears, I'm not too sure that would be the best calibers. If that's all you have I would agree with the above posts, but some very hot Ball ammo. I usually carry hot loaded 180gr Hard Cast rounds in my .357 Magnum when in the woods.

quote:

Where do I shoot if a bear does come at me/us? Head? neck? If it were standing on hind legs, do I aim in between the arms? I would figure anywhere in the snout or eyes? I know...I know..sounds funny, but I always wondered

The first thing to do is learn bear behavior. Black bears are much more likely to bluff, and there are only a couple of black bear full attacks in the US in any given year.

With the guns you have, I would definitely make the first shot to the ground unless the bear was trying to chew on me. The noise alone would normally do it unless you were trying to pet mama's cubs.

Your chances of killing a bear with your handgun quickly enough to stop an attack is small. That would be my last option, and I probably would try to "stick it in his ear".

Watching a bear killed with a bow or even large-caliber handgun is a sobering experience. They take awhile to die.

I'd load for two leggers and forget about the bears. If you want a deep penetrating hollowpoint, I'd SWAG that Hornady XTPs are the way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by flop-shank:
I'd load for two leggers and forget about the bears. If you want a deep penetrating hollowpoint, I'd SWAG that Hornady XTPs are the way to go.

I don't know, last time that I was out where I thought bears were even a slight possibility, I just loaded my Model 58 with 250gr Federal Castcores rather than the usual payload of Winchester Silvertips. I figured that what would kill a bear ought work on a man, but not necessarily vice versa. The nice thing about an auto, is that one can always just change mags rather quickly depending on the threat. (Of course, arguably, much like your .44 mag, there's some leeway with a .41 where most anything one stuffs into it is going to pack a whallop on both ends.)

.40 FMJ isn't the worst load to use for personal defense against humans either. It's not the best, but it does poke a relatively large hole that goes deep.

I use a .40 for woods use. In my case, I'm
about as likely to need it for an animal, as
I am a 2 legger. I'm on private property though..
I tend to agree with penetration as being pretty
important if you might see larger animals.
I know of a ranger who recently had to shoot a
mean hog with a Glock .40, and using the LE
hollow points, it took nearly the whole mag.
I'm not sure where he was aiming though..
Anyway, when I carry the .40 in the woods I
don't use the fancy stuff.
I use regular ole FMJ..
If I wanted something really stout, I would go
with the double tap woods/cast slug loads.
But.. I sort of came to the conclusion it was
probably overkill for my needs, so I've just
been using the FMJ. I do use 180 grain though..
I think FMJ can quite possibly do better on
larger animals due to the extra penetration,
vs hollow points which can expand too early
and thus not penetrate quite as well.
So that's what I went with..
As far as 2 leggers, they won't like the FMJ at
all. With the broad flat nose of the .40, even
FMJ is going to punch a big nasty hole, and not
look back. And with 15 shots, I can always
re-apply if needed.
BTW, if you are thinking animals, I'd prefer
the .40 over the 9mm. Again, it's the blunt
nose of the slug more than anything else..
A 9mm will punch, but it's more likely to leave
a hole that can close up on itself and reduce
bleeding. Not as likely with the .40 and it's
flat wad cutter type shaped slug.
That's why I chose the .40 over the 9mm for my
woods use. "I also am using a Sigma 40VE"
Just my 13 cents worth anyway..

Double Tap Ammunition
the web site is:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_26

DT offers a 180 gr. or 200 gr. "Controlled Expansion JHP" at about 1100 fps from a 4.5" Bbl. as well as a 200 gr. FMJ-Flat Point with
similiar ballistics. However with the 9MM LUger DT only offers Speer Gold DOts of 115 124 and 147 gr. - go with a hot 124 r. FMJ -or- as some have advised go with a hot loading using
the Hornady 124 gr. XTP JHPs. The XTP is built for controlled/;ater expansion than Gold Dots or Golden Sabers.

WHere to shoot, bears have massive skulls so chest area - if it's broadside a common mistakke is to shoot high and it just hits the lungs - they'll take a while to die that way. the heart rides lower third - so aim mid to low shoulder and if you miss and hit rearward of that it'll be near the heart

Buffalo Bore also makes high performance ammunition. Another maker is CorBon - look at their DPX offeringts - The DPX bullet is actually the Barnes XPB HP - solid copper with thinner petals to the hollow point so it will expand but stay together, retains 99% bullet weight and will penentrate with enough velocity.

Recall the SIberian Tiger 350 lb "kitty" that got loose at the SF zoo a while back? Somebody in ht SFPD dept. told a gun board member it took 12 hits from a .40 S&W that 4 LEOs fired 23 rounds at it.

pssst, Cougars get about half that big for
adult male cats.

Randall

Regarding the siberian tiger kitty at the sf zoo. From
what i read, the 40sw did not take the cat out. A 12g
pump shotgun with slugs retrieved from a parol car is
what put the small 350lb siberian down. By the way, large
siberians can reach 800lbs. The use of the police 40 not
being effective against a large animal was left out of most
articles. The same thing happened with the grizzley that killed
timothy treadwell ( the careless grizzley lover in aslaska). IT
was reported 2 officers took out the grizzley with there 40s auto.
It was later reported that the grizzley was killed with a 12g pump and slugs
after the bear took 12-18 rounds with the 40sw and was not effective.
Regarding your Q about defense with the 40 and 9mm against bears, my 1st pick
would be the 40sw loaded with buffalo bores 180g fmj-fp at 1100fs. for the 9mm,
i would pick a hot 125g fmj-fp loaded over 1200fs. There is a case on record recently
of a fisherman who killed a grizzley on a alaska fishing trip that attacked his buddy. He
had a 9MM (beretta i think) in a shoulder holster. So there is at least 1 case on file of
a 9mm taking out a grizzley.

Rick - That's just way too funny!

rd